IRC log started Sun Jun 18 00:00:00 2000
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[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m re eih[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m re[0m
[1;30m* [1;33meihrul/#tunes [0mis still trying to reconcile high optimization with interactivity. :)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m you and everyone else[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m heh[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m Dynamo is a good scheme[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m but it simplify isn't global enough :)[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m it presupposes static optimizations before-hand[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m in slate, there can be no static optimization until everything has been inlined as a consequence of the translation scheme[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m maybe[0m
12:10pm
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m well, its not a maybe... inlining just can't happen until run-time :)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m yeah but you can p/e that runtime[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m easier said than done![0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i don't suppose you've considered recursively-similar structures, then[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m eh?[0m
[1;30m* [1;33meihrul/#tunes [0mwhistles.[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m geez[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m explicitly transform look-up paths into recursive applications of the same name[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m "recursive applications of the same name"[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m that's more than a little vague to me[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m no, you just read the wrong papers[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m doesn't matter[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m it is a vague statement at this point[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m heh :)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m so.. you're saying that pre-calculating the run-time call path is too vague?[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m no, i'm saying that the way you phrase things is vague[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m sorry, i guess i should use precise words like SSA and FUD :P[0m
12:20pm
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m instead of tunes terms[0m
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[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m whatever[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m did anyone else see the connection between "recursive applications of the same name" to "pre-calculating the run-time call path"?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m i don't think on water's level, sorry. :)[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m anyway, that's what was going to get done in the first place :)[0m
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[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m What is TUNES is that an NES emulator?[0m
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[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m MisterP: TUNES is the next generation of computer software[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m and language, etc[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m cool[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m Are you guys in need of developrs?[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m developers[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m MisterP: hmm, what languages do you know?[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m C++[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m A basic understanding of C++[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m ah. no C++ here - it's not pointer-safe, among other things....[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m you need to develop yourself first[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m What do you use?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m MisterP: various languages - in the end i believe there'll be at least one new one[0m
[1;34m<[0mMisterP[1;34m>[0m Nice[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m hmm, where's that language page[0m
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[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m http://www.tunes.org/Review/Languages.html[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m Heh.[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m somebody should maintain that better[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: thanks[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m *that* was interesting....[0m
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[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m ack [0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m ping?[0m
03:10pm
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: a question has come up on #debian - is it feasible to compile an HM-typed language like Haskell or OCaml into Lisp, preserving the speed advantages of the static typing?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: do you have any opinion? :)[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m only if the lisp compiler supports type annotiations for optimizing[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m haskell and ocaml compilers would probably still produce significantly faster code[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m i'm thinking in the case of an OS based on the lisp pointer model[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m OS ?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m would something like common lisp's type annotations suffice?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: vapour, in this instance. http://ftp.rook.com.au/[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m washort: perhaps .. basically it needs to know not to do checks in like integer arithmetic[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m you mean PIC ?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m hmm, i don't know what PIC is[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m (unless you mean position-independent code)[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m just that[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m hm. i don't see what you mean...[0m
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[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m how does the OS affect to compiling?[0m
03:20pm
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m this OS design incorporates the compiler as part of the security model [0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m if the security checking is dynamic then it will probably be slower anyway, unless it has very good type inference[0m
03:30pm
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: most of the security checking is done at compile time -[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: the rest is handled by appropriate namespaces, i.e. not letting user programs get a reference to unsafe functions, data, and the like[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m say you had : (let (x 1) (x x)), where would be check be done?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m i don't know --[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m i am doubtful you can usefully check for nontermination --[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m s/be/the/[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m the main thing is being certain that the code is not violating security by accessing things it's not supposed to[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m you can't, for example, access memory directly, you have to use the garbage collector and allocator[0m
03:40pm
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m with static typing all that can be done in linking or before AFAIK[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m anyway, the OS should be able to handle at least numerical computations without significant overhead, so an acceptable conversion should be possible[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m the main question is type-system conversion, i suppose[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m and that's not central.[0m
03:50pm
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m type system conversion?[0m
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[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m lisp has a sloppier type system, the conversion shouldn't be a problem[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m hey, its not sloppier... its just more flexible[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m he ;)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m well, these questions are coming from a friend of mine who's a very big static-languages fan[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m haskell/mercury/etc[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m who?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m and i was trying to sell him on the concept of a lisp-based OS....[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m smklsmkl: wli[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m oh[0m
04:00pm
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[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m anyway, i think that the lower level language a language is compiled to, the better performance would be possible[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m yeah[0m
[1;34m<[0mwashort[1;34m>[0m but i'm not sure you'd get a commensurate performance gain to the time it would take to implement a totally separate compiler[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m perhaps, but the code a compiler generates is kinda low level anyway[0m
[1;34m<[0msmklsmkl[1;34m>[0m so there isn't that much work[0m
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[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m re all[0m
[1;34m<[0mlar1[1;34m>[0m re[0m
07:50pm
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m [1;36mlmaxson [1;30m[[0;36mlmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net[1;30m][0m has joined #tunes[0m
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[1;34m<[0mlmaxson[1;34m>[0m I will respond with a hello.[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m hi ree[0m
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m lmaxson [1;30m[[0mlmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net[1;30m][0m has left #tunes [1;30m[[1;37m[1;30m][0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m hey water, all[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m so any progress in tunes as of late?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m still working on slate[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m that's nice that you're developing your own language[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m we plan to do that eventually, but for scientific tasks[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m "we"?[0m
[1;34m<[0mcoreyr[1;34m>[0m the borg[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m hah[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m dist [0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m url?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m dist.net/[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m we're developing a unified systems approach for data organization and other computing[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m what differentiates "scientific tasks" from others other than massively parallel tasks?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m specific tasks like artificial intelligence[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m heh[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m sorry, mentioning the word AI just starts little alarms in my head[0m
08:10pm
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m hah, no, it's for professional use[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m oh "professional" use :P[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m dist.net project will provide a interface for collecting massive amounts of information[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m massive scale being?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m dist.org will apply ai technology towards helping research in other science fields[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m all a open model[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m entire organized information sets from different science fields[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i don't understand what precisely you're getting at[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m give an example[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m of what dist.net could do that nothing else could[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m a unified approach to data organization and sharing is basically it[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m it could be implemented in any shape or form[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m an example, please[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m well, object use is transparent through any media[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m how is dist.net not just another lisp system with a cgi-bin interface[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m ?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m interface independant[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m what range of interface semantics and syntax are we talking about?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m because it has specific goals different from that of other projects[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m a simple semenatic, basic inheritance through namespace path[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m that sounds like techno-babble[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m each object will have capabilities (where the code is implemented)[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m well, that will be redefined later probably, looking for better models of data classification[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m what's your starting point for implementation?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m it's basically a hybrid type of system between eros and object oriented rule based databases[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m ok that's something concrete[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m inherited security, capabilities, ..[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m maybe[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m it'll run on top of other systems[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m as a embedded database[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m anyway[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m still in a very early stage[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m hopefully it will be language independant internally[0m
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[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m I don't like implementations that stress concrete interface with a specific language[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m re hcf[0m
[1;34m<[0mhcf[1;34m>[0m re water[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m because that language might not be able to express a specific approach to all interfaces[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i'm sorry, that's pretty vague[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m it is, and will be for quite awhile[0m
08:20pm
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m side note: i am seriously contemplating taking the damned arrow paper off the www until i update it[0m
[1;34m<[0mlar1[1;34m>[0m water:  Why?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m heh[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m lar: are you on the tunes mlists?[0m
08:30pm
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m how will tunes manage network operations?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m oh geez[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m would someone else field that question?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m sorry, i'm working on stuff right now[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m and that's not a simple question[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m is it on the site?[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m I can just look it up there[0m
[1;34m<[0mcoreyr[1;34m>[0m yeah try that[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m see "tunes vs the www" under "Interfaces"[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m ok, great[0m
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m coreyr [1;30m[[0mcoreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com[1;30m][0m has left #tunes [1;30m[[1;37m[1;30m][0m
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m [0mSignOff [1;37mbillh[0m: #TUNES [1;30m([0m[BX] Uh oh... I'm getting a blip on the gaydar. Richard Simons is coming![1;30m)[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m you know what would be funny[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m if richard simons wasn't really gay[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m he goes home at night, unbuckles his pants, grabs a beer[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m flips on jerry springer[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m no[0m
[1;34m<[0mhcf[1;34m>[0m ree: that doesnt apply to #tunes, take it elsewhere[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m all in a day's work[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m nice to see you again too hcf[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m hehe, a year or so ago he was searching for a project[0m
[1;34m<[0mree[1;34m>[0m now he's 'top guy' =)[0m
[1;34m<[0mlar1[1;34m>[0m water:  No, I am not on the tunes mlists[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m lar: then you don't see all the programming kooks come by[0m
08:40pm
[1;34m<[0mlar1[1;34m>[0m heh[0m
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08:50pm
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09:20pm
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