IRC log started Fri May 26 00:00:02 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0526 -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (later) -:- water [water@tnt-10-3.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes damn it, there's no one to talk with 01:00am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp213.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- deepsky [giov@a-tv4-35.tin.it] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff deepsky: #TUNES (poof) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-3.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-9-184.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes n.sign -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Leaving) 08:20am * water/#tunes has another look at the brain proglang -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes hey kyle hello I was watching a conversation about brackets in slate. -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-188.s188.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes when? where? I do not remember, this week? hm it probably involved me what about it? Yes, '/' was mentioned too. ok It was like () was used as a operator to quote, or something. yes sort of 10:20am in smalltalk, # does the same thing, but it only works on symbols Kyle_L: to u, what r 'brackets'? within slate, ( places the evaluator within the namespace previously mentioned the '(' and the ')' symbols and ) returns it from the namespace Kyle_L: then what r '[' and ']'? square brackets {} are braces What do you call them? not that i care that much, but why not call () paretheses? i suppose that parenthesizing is really a grammatical action, not a syntactic one I don't know. Maybe I will from now on. actually i think you are right but anyway does what i said about ( and ) in slate make sense? Kyle_L: why not call them all brackets: rounded (), square [], angle <>, curly {} ? how deos slate deal with precedence if brackets mean something else? kyle: purely message-based syntax kyle: i.e. applicative smalltalk, self, lisp, and scheme are all like that hcf: braces are given a special name only because of thier large usage hcf: ...in my world -:- antoine [antoine@k72-114.kingsley.co.za] has joined #tunes water: even so, how do you write (a+b)*c? anyway... basically there is no precedence because you're directly editing a representation of a call-flow graph it depends ok, if it is graphical, then I can see. (sorry to say that , i will explain) hi antoine water :> you can do it two ways.... if you do it the smalltalk way, numbers are objects and operations are protocols for those objects so, a+b*c is enough there the only other way to do it within that framework is b+a*c however.... if you treat + and * as objects in themselves (either with syntactic sugar or with re-writing or some other way)... I do no know SmallTalk, but "a+b*c" == "(a+b)*c" could make you mad! :) nope it's actually easier that way as long as you accept the fact that you're coding directly in data-flow 10:30am true. anyway so the instructions are in the right order for a stack-based machine to process if you treat + and * as objects, then each of them has two slots that have to be set yep in fact, the smalltalk and self vm's are stack-based when considered within message code so as i was saying... :) you'd have (without sugar): (* 1 : c 2 : (+ 1 : a 2 : b) in lisp this would just be (* c (+ a b)) well well well (* c + a b) :P * water/#tunes keeps trying to figure out the informatic purpose of that word What are the digits in your example rep.? slot names of the operators ok thanks * water/#tunes wonders how else he could indicate intentional conversational pauses using an ascii interface np hcf: do you have any ideas? :) hmm antoine: anything we can do for ya today? 10:40am hcf: especially as i rather enjoy gaps in the conversation, because it gives me a chance to meditate on an idea water: Why is it that we are only able to derive a clean specification _after_ we've done the implementation ? *chortle* ','. '.', or '...' on a single line perhaps '---' the ellipses look fine antoine: next question, please? :) but seriously it seems like something that results from the programming paradigm, to me water: that's what I figured too... water: opos oops too it's not like people have ever invented tools and known their full purpose before they came up with the design and implementation * water/#tunes decides to use punctuation systematically water: part of the problem may be not understanding the problems caused by the very big problem of not being able to fully understand a problem before attempting to solve it ? * antoine/#tunes *ducks* * Kyle_L/#Tunes smiles * water/#tunes eyes that sentence rather suspiciously; i think you should re-phrase that. i assume, of course, that you actually want a valuable answer. * antoine/#tunes *rephrases* hastily... it's not that i don't like the ontology of the original question, but it doesn't allow a very good answer, does it? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-188.s188.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) 10:50am -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-188.s188.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes To put it another way: Is the constraint in coming up with a clean specification inherent in the language we use to express the specification, or is it inherent in attempting to solve problems that we do not understand the full causality of ? *argh* That's not much better... * water/#tunes looks it over i think i have a good restatement: (in the form of an answer) basically, you have formal models and then you have the real world.... *nods* and no amount of discrete-process planning is going to cope with that eventually and programs (as discrete processes) always satisfy some formal model, no matter how complex . does that work? abi: uc&c uc&c is Understanding Computers and Cognition or skip GEB and read a real book like this one :) okay... so if change is inevitable and no formal model can predict the direction of change... i would modify that a bit to.... uhu ? "change is inevitable and no formal model can predict the direction of *it's own subject matter's* change..." * antoine/#tunes *ponders* that for a bit in other words, my words about a subject will always wind up being wrong some of the time * antoine/#tunes *ponders* that for a bit too i think Godel had something to say about this, as well. :) a wee bit yeah... :> abi: agt agt is Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/ water: are you saying "wrong" or "wrong or ambiguous"? 11:00am i don't follow the "excluded middle" rule ok i take it people are now looking at agt. :> :( heh So, if no formal specification can fully capture the problem and if the implementation of that specification will cause us to rethink the problem and see a better specification - if those hold - the obvious question is: How should we write our specifications/systems to take full advantage of the inevitable revision ? "make them in the most flexible way" Or another way, if we accept that change is inevitable, does or should it change the way we view our solutions ? Okay... so the obvious question is: How do we determine the most flexible way without knowledge of the direction of the inevitable change ? my head hurts now heh "useful, not expedient" :) 11:10am definition for useful ? definition for expedient ? * antoine/#tunes opens his brain wide and goes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah acke - must go - thanks for the talk and ideas :> i was intentionally being vague there ok wait - hold a moment Intentionally being vague ? yes . :P :-/ just ask what? * antoine/#tunes *listens* contentedly to the static of his mind i thought you had to leave true - :> -:- SignOff antoine: #TUNES (*pooof*) 11:20am -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes * water/#tunes resists the urge to write an irc agent system in squeak * water/#tunes sorts through his web bookmark collections do we really need strings in slate? * water/#tunes activates the Minor Musings Mode toggle switch i keep playing with the notion of quoting, and it's pretty troublesome from a UI standpoint, although sometimes in odd areas 01:10pm no single programming language handles quoting in a way that tunes is supposed to use especially Lisp, as it's string type is different from its symbols, even though its symbols are superficially strings the only way to deal with this that i see is the strong modularity of objects-as-namespaces used as the type instantiator and then provide functions from this namespace to UI-bound primitives perhaps this abstract framework can be sufficiently formalized to provide a specification of "how to create types" in slate for the spec without actually binding the spec to a particular type-system this latter option (binding the spec to a particular type-system) really bothers me, though without it the language will be very hard to use hm s/it/some sort of binding to types/ perhaps for now, we could just pick whatever UI we want for naming the elements of a particular namespace-type, and rationalize or modify it later on the other hand, maybe i'm just like a dog chasing its tail ;) one problem no matter what is that the current UI-bindings to the necessary types determine that by which an object *can* and *cannot* be referrenced 01:20pm which intuitively sounds as though it falls short of tunes ui goals * water/#tunes looks for a relevant quote from tunes specs note: an underlying question here is whether a name is an attribute of an object or not the difference is subtle maybe i should ask the Tunes mailing list this question.... LOL * water/#tunes sighs bbl -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) hm. 01:30pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp112.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes hoy Luke 'lo -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection refused -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from milton.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is milton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.06.26.(nom4) (from milton.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 12 2000 at 21 16:36 MDT(from milton.openprojects.net) -:- milton.openprojects.net u2.10.06.26.(nom4) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 0% -:- [global users on irc(501)] 48% -:- [invisible users on irc(553)] 52% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(1054)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(27)] (avg. 39 users per server) -:- [total channels created(382)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !milton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 10 (9 clients) !milton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #tunes: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Thu May 25 17:15:39 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ Luke ] [ smoke ] [ eihrul ] [ hcf ] [ Kyle_L ] [ abi ] [ thomas ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.055 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES 02:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-27.s27.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- Maximus4 [asdasd@node-64-248-41-204.dslspeed.zyan.com] has joined #tunes -:- Maximus4 [asdasd@node-64-248-41-204.dslspeed.zyan.com] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-189.s189.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brboot) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250070.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes tcn: hoy, nothing happening here, join #dolphin for active ppl 04:00pm -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- SignOff Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Luke[203.46.39.102]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (127.0.0.1 zei je?) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Luke[203.46.39.102]) -:- Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Luke[203.46.39.102]) -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial780.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Hey gang! hey (with-sarcasm (display "What a warm welcome!")) ah, good... hi eih :) hmmm, cmu is still giving me the shaft... familiar with Squeak? 05:40pm the shaft? As in? as in, the SCS waiting-list! what's SCS? school of computer science ah applied for what? well, applied for admission into the school of computer science... weeeeeell, yes, but for what degree? Undergrad, grad, postgrad? undergrad okie i'm a little young for the other options, no? I wouldn't know really <- 18 besides, my sense of age is kind of deturpated, given that I frequented the Institute of Pure and Applied Math at age 15 in the company of 16- and 17-year old PhDs :) well, that doesn't happen in the states... your prime years are sapped up in what is affectionately called "secondary education" anyhoo, are you familiar with Squeak? heh nope dammit :P is Brian anywhere to be found? still, kinda makes me mad... just thinking about all the people who're taking my position who are in it just for money or who want to be sysadmins :/ hmm, well, every so-and-so days he's off at work for a long time otherwise, he's on later during the night k well, isn't CMU like $30K/year anyway? well, yeah * Kaufmann/#tunes likes the Brazilian scheme of things better... the best colleges here are the public ones but if it's getting paid for... it might as well be for the degree i *prefer* especially at $30k a year São Paulo State University at Campinas, Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo University at São Carlos... /especially/ :) though, i suppose it could be worse than a discrete mathematics degree program hey, don't bash math... math is fun, math is good :) i know... that's what i just said i dunno, i was almost considering it over CS... because i don't want to necessarily sit through operating system and db courses... oh, sorry, I misread that :) and i still need to decide to between the two... GOD, I hate Web pages with MIDIs!!! why? 05:50pm just use lynx... because I happened to be listening to something else at the time, and it just suddenly cut in... not to mention that the people who do these evil things usually go to the extra trouble of /disabling/ the widget for stopping the music :P * eihrul/#tunes doesn't have a sound card... solves the problem. uh, I often do, but sometimes I need graphics LOL that's very Cat Stevens-ish, Lee :) _Moonshadow_, specifically well, you don't see me complaining about web pages with midis, do ya? :P -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES ( brb) lessee if I remember the lyrics "If I ever lose my legs, I won't moan and I won't beg/'cause if I ever lose my legs, eeeieh eeeeh I won't have to walk no more" well, this is more like cutting off your legs so you don't have to walk... one is passive, one is active * Kaufmann/#tunes sighs... God-damned change sets * Kaufmann/#tunes doesn't even remember why he decided to go back to experimenting w/ Squeak anymore well, cut off your legs then :) * Kaufmann/#tunes goes for the saw -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn210.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 06:00pm weeeeeell, I'm off then. is the leg off? not quite yet :) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Your wisemen don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick." - Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull)) 06:10pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kyle_L[cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-67.s67.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Luke: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc69v.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [09:38pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-67.s67.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp112.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-67.s67.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0527 IRC log ended Sat May 27 00:00:01 2000