IRC log started Tue Feb 29 00:00:02 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0229
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<Fufie> any of you have a window on bespin? I'm not able to log in
<Fufie> seems to work now as cvs.tunes.org
05:20am
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<zombieflesh> Hi, I am new here, the guy from Intelligenesis
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11:40am
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-:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || WebMind @ http://www.intelligenesis.net/
-:- topic set by water [Sun Feb 27 15:17:43 2000]
-:- [Users(#tunes:10)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ hcf       ] [ AlonzoTG  ] [ lar1      ] [ eihrul    ] 
[ thomas    ] [ smkl      ] [ abi       ] [ Fare      ] [ Plundis   ] 
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<lambda> hey
<lambda>  /server irc.home.com
<lambda> )@#
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<water> hi all
05:10pm
<hcf> hi
<hcf> http://www.netlib.org/slatec/index.html
* water/#tunes prepares to sift through 125 incoming emails
<water> ok
<water> doesn't seem like too much of a name-clash
<hcf> right
<water> well, the guy i'm talking to at intelligenesis groks, cto doesn't
<hcf> whats that result in?
<water> it doesn't seem the cto is a bit deluded about the implementation
<water> s/doesn't seem/seems/
<water> bleh. tried to write one statement, and then switched to another
<water> this guy's read van benthem and co-induction stuff and everything
<water> he wants to help me, too
<hcf> the non-cto u mean
<water> yes, Youlian is his name
<hcf> thats good
<water> (he's russian)
05:20pm
<water> it seems he proposed co-inductive ideas earlier, and "was regarded as a wacko"
<water> hm they're in NYC
<water> and he is a programmer doing sql, though i think he's most likely more capable than that suggests
<hcf> how'd he find ur work?
<water> he apparently has been suggesting improvements to the design since he signed on last fall, but no one listens to him
<water> he looked at tunes.org, apparently
<water> i'm thinking the word "arrow" sort of stood out
<water> and he does think the tunes idea is revolutionary
<hcf> on what grounds do they dismiss his ideas?
<water> hi eih
<eihrul> hey
<eihrul> water: i found lots of concurrency papers off of cora
<eihrul> still need to sort through them all
<water> yes there are quite a few
05:30pm
<eihrul> i have one that looks to be a survey
<water> url?
<eihrul> don't have urls any more
<eihrul> i just downloaded them all :)
<water> yeah but you can look them up, can't you?
<eihrul> "concurrent object-oriented languages and the inheritance anomaly", kafura and lavender
<water> got it
<water> i didn't think it was a survey,though
<eihrul> well, quite near the abstract it says "this survey" etc
<eihrul> actually, in the abstract
<water> hm
<water> well, let me know when you have a "warm fuzzy feeling" about concurrency in slate
<water> so we can hammer out the ideas
<hcf> try inheritance anomaly in RI
<eihrul> well, right now it's a desolate waste-land with a shiny thing off in the distance :)
<water> bah
<eihrul> hey... i don't even have a single year of college under my belt :P
<eihrul> gimme a break... still have much to learn
<water> ok
<water> i have other stuff i'm cooking up anyway
<tcn> hey water..
<water> hey tcn
<water> btw, today's a good day for dressing up and updating slate docs
<hcf> dressing up?
<water> re-factoring
<tcn> suppose I get some time to study more mathematics and crap... what sort of literature led you toward this slate/arrow stuff? (besides cybernetics)
<water> making it more coherent
<tcn> s/literature/whatever/ :)
<water> tcn: heh
<water> lots of stuff from folli
05:40pm
<tcn> folli? a mathematician?
<water> no an organization
<water> abi jolli
<abi> jolli is the Journal of Logic, Language, and Info at http://www.folli.uva.nl/Jolli/
<water> that domain hosts their publications etc
<water> there's also clsi, who published "vicious circles" by barwise and moss
<water> and then there's the volume of stuff i gathered from the net
<water> but my original idea of arrows replacing bits occurred to me on a school bus in 1992 :)
<water> the coolest stuff i had learned at the time was galois theory, formal proof systems, and non-euclidean geometry :)
<hcf> water: has youlian seen the slate stuff?
<water> (also a little group theory)
<tcn> galois theory? tell me about that..
<water> hcf: he hasn't mentioned it
<water> tcn: do a net search
<water> there's plenty of info on it
<tcn> well, briefly, what's cool about it?
<water> it relates solving higher-index polynomial equations using a geometrical mapping
<water> so that the solutions form a radially-symmetric pattern about 0+0*i
<water> in the complex plane
<tcn> ah
<tcn> I've seen a bit of that when I took calc or pre-calc
<water> he showed that for an n-degree eqn, there were always n solutions
<water> well there's more to it than that as for it's fundamental contributions to mathematics
<tcn> I found a whole shitload of galois' theorems :)
<water> yeah i told you
05:50pm
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<eihrul> water: besides concurrency, what were the other foggy issues?
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
<tcn> thanks water
<water> np
<water> macros, maths, rewrite, ...
<water> hm what was the last one?
<water> oh yeah meta-objects and their protocols
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<eihrul> you mean default, "primitive" meta-objects
<eihrul> or the concept of meta-objects and protocols themselves?
<water> sure, but also outlining the schemes for modifying them in useful ways
<water> i wonder if i should tell Youlian what i do for a living?
<water> i think he'd be totally shocked
<eihrul> i know i'm still shocked about it :)
<water> i really hate my job
<water> a friend of mine tried to kill himself last night
<water> a bottle of hard alchohol and one of aspirin
<water> he emailed a short note to his mother, who promptly called the police
06:00pm
<water> he's in the hospital still
<water> he was going to get this great job working for the navy in their wrestling team
<water> but they cancelled his transfer at the last minute, because "he's a nuke", essentially
<water> so he's stuck in his frustrating job for another 3.5 years
<water> yes, Youlian, i know you'll read this
<water> well, anyway...
<water> eih: just keep thinking over concurrency stuff until you feel comfortable talking about it
<eihrul> well, my notion of concurrency is limited to what i know of concurrency as presented by operating systems for more procedural systems
<water> so is mine for the most part
<eihrul> have dealth little in functional and objective concurrency
<water> or maybe you mean something more simple
<eihrul> s/dealth/dealt
06:10pm
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<air> heh, my computer at work was reporting tomorrow as 32feb2000. is that an intercalary day-related problem?
<air> er 30feb
06:30pm
<water> eih: got recommendations for slate doc content?
<eihrul> sec
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<lar1> hey
<water> hi lar
<lar1> water:  How goes it?
06:50pm
<water> a friend of mine tried to kill himself last night
<lar1> Woah... thats some heavy stuff
<lar1> Are you ok?
<water> yeah i'm fine
<eihrul> water: perhaps clarifying lazy execution wrt blocks
<water> eih: ok
<water> yeah i was just looking at that
<water> i should probably re-organize that stuff a bit
<water> "object as function" has two separate issues for instance
<water> this will look much better in tutorial form
<water> but that requires an implementation ;)
<eihrul> yes (i know)
<water> hm s/objects as functions/slate code execution/
<eihrul> but lucky me... i have a whole novel to read, an essay to write, the physics problem set, and essay questions on the novel... all due thursday
<water> and factor out the object representation stuff
<lar1> eihrul: Ouch
<water> bleh
<lar1> eihrul: AP classes?
<water> i could use another coder
<water> hmmm
<water> maybe youlian would help
* lar1/#tunes can code, but doesn't understand your concepts
<lar1> Who is youlian?
<eihrul> water: end of quarter right now... stuff piles up
<water> lar: the fellow from intelligenesis who wrote me
<lar1> water: Ah
<eihrul> but actually
<eihrul> i can code in school tomorrow :)
<lar1> Sweet!!
<water> heh
<water> how?
<eihrul> because tomorrow is "map day," all we do is career/future seminars
<eihrul> paper... 
<lar1> eihrul:  If you had a pda you could do it there ;)
<eihrul> nope... 
<eihrul> the confiscation thing
<lar1> Oh yeah
<eihrul> plus typing on a pda is trouble-some... and the keyboard would be a dead-give-away :)
<lar1> Jot
<eihrul> well, it's faster to write on paper....
<lar1> I guess :)
07:00pm
<water> yeah pda's don't work well for input
<water> unless you had a dynamic kb
<air> eihrul: the pilot has shortcuts that u can put the most common words into. u can write much faster by using them
<lar1> brb
<eihrul> air: pilots also have keyboards...
<air> ya but who wants to pack a keyboard around with them
<air> and the onscreen keyboard sucks
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<water> hm if a slate object is "active", then it can force its own result and send it to other objects to process
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<water> hello metaphor
<water> which isn't lazy at all, but rather just active i suppose
<eihrul> though if all statements were to be lazy in slate
<air> anyone know what OSes ProFTPD runs on?
<eihrul> not sure what something like: myCollection (Sort (usingMethod : ../foo)) would end up being...
<eihrul> unless that statement as a whole is lazy :)
<air> my guess is NT cuz the support ppl are dumber than a newbie win98 luser
<water> yeah the whole statement is lazy
<water> it returns an object that doesn't get evaluated until you ask for the result
07:10pm
<water> (like what i was saying about object-representations)
<eihrul> which also preserves the environment myCollection selects into, of course?
<water> it should, but we haven't specified how that should be made to happen
<water> (i.e. the preferred traits of methods, i think)
<eihrul> well, for right now, it's easy enough to think of a lazy statement as a closure
<water> ok
<eihrul> though i'm not sure if this is the correct way to think of it right now :)
<water> an object-message closure
<water> no problem with that
<water> just like a function-arg closure
<water> except we only bind with accessor messages
<Fare> Gakuk!
<water> hey fare
<water> fare: did you hear of the intelligenesis interaction?
<water> anyway, when can i take a peek at SSSSSS?
<lar1> SSSSSS?
07:20pm
<eihrul> perhaps (S)extet would be an easier to type name? :)
<AlonzoTG> frak
<AlonzoTG> I voted for McCain but my state went heavily for bush.
<AlonzoTG> =((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
<water> i guess Fare's just teasing us yet another time
<lar1> Heh he must have a script to do that... ;)
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07:30pm
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<water> fare: so when do i get a peek at SSSSSS?
<Fare> water: when I write it?
<water> heh
<water> n/m then
<Fare> ok, so the principle is that I try to isolate basic modules in the design of a computing system
<Fare> and I relate these modules each to a way to develop software
<water> fare: also did you notice the recent interaction about intelligenesis?
<Fare> first kind of module is a library, to support incremental programming.
<Fare> intelligenesis?
<Fare> where?
<water> www.intelligenesis.net
<water> some start-up company making a crappy piece of ai that is based on a theory similar to arrow stuff
<Fare> S2: a monitor, to support concurrent programming
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> water: if it's crappy, I hope it's not that related to arrow
<Fare> S3: a compiler, to support programming abstraction
<water> no, the implementation ideas are terribly flawed
<Fare> S4: an admission controler, to support dynamic/interactive programming
<Fare> S5: a code verifier, to support contractual programming
<Fare> S6: an expert system to support metaprogramming
<water> hm
<water> so what does this analysis of units yield?
<Fare> the problem is how to introduce reflection in all that
<water> i don't think i'd do it that way
<Fare> water: it yields basic components that already exist in current systems, but never all at once.
07:40pm
<AlonzoTG> why does it suck? It seems to be one of the few systems that is on the right track. (webmind)
<Fare> water: and it suggests that these components must all have support deep in the system, least they cannot work in harmony
<water> fare: ok but i'm not sure how much that will convince a non-tuneser
<Fare> that's a problem.
<Fare> I'm not fully convinced myself
<Fare> some piece of the puzzle is missing
<water> atg: it implements something very trivial compared to the philosophy the cto proposes in his books
<water> atg: it's also a hack, written in java, and fairly cumbersome to use and maintain
<water> but then financial analysis doesn't care if the theory is good
<water> they just care about reliable numbers
<AlonzoTG> =L
<water> but a coder in the company definitely thinks otherwise
<water> fare: that's how i found out about them. this coder wrote me about tunes.org and the arrow paper
07:50pm
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<water> wb
<hcf> hi
<Fare> water: do you have any idea how I could make S^6 better?
08:00pm
<water> hm
<Fare> libraries, you find in just any computer since Turing's works in the 1940's.
<Fare> monitors are the heart of "operating systems" and "kernels"
<water> you're basically sugfgesting that relfecting in a unified way breaks the isolation of these modules, yes?
<Fare> compilers are well-known, albeit few systems integrate them deeply (notable exceptions: LISP, Java)
<Fare> (ok, UCSD Pascal)
<hcf> water:
<hcf> 2000.0229:-:- zombieflesh [youlian@216.89.84.6] has joined #TUNES
<hcf> 2000.0229:<zombieflesh> Hi, I am new here, the guy from Intelligenesis
<hcf> 2000.0229:-:- SignOff zombieflesh: #TUNES (Leaving)
<hcf> 2000.0229:11:40am
<Fare> admission control is the other "kernely" attribute, albeit really badly done
<water> hcf: hmmm
* water/#tunes nods
<water> perhaps if you chose a different way to slice a complete system into parts
<Fare> (except that thanks to static scoping, you can do it in LISP)
<Fare> Actually, it's not so much slicing the system into parts as showing different "directions" for the expressiveness of the system.
<water> what criteria did you use for selecting the functionality to describe?
<Fare> for the parts are not "independent"
<Fare> water: excellent question
<water> imo, you could base it on the programming language features needed to easily express each part
<Fare> water: the lower parts, library, monitor & compiler, appeared naturally when describing "implementation support".
<water> s/features/semantics/
<water> hm
<Fare> do you have "implement1" in mind?
<water> i wasn't thinking of it explicitly, but sure
<Fare> well, if you look at an implementation diagram, you see that an implementation comprises these three elements
<Fare> the compiler translates chunks of high-level code into chunks of low-level code
<water> perhaps
<water> i think the major point is adequately describing the viewpoint that sees the system this way
<Fare> but the low-level code is always executed "in context"; there must be startup, standard functions, etc, not comprised in the user-provided source
<Fare> hence a library
<water> to appeal to the widest audience (i.e. more than just you ;)
<Fare> and multiple compiled programs that interact must synchronize through a monitor
<water> so i could s/library/orthogonally-persistent code base/
08:10pm
<Fare> water: not necessarily orthogonal; although of course that is better
<water> hm
<Fare> I try to make an analysis that's valid for _any_ computing system, and deduce a "natural" design from the analysis.
<water> admission controller is roughly equivalent to a security system?
<Fare> It so happens that the "natural" design has never been met.
<Fare> water: yup
<Fare> although only the very core of it needs be in the initial/common system
<water> hm
<Fare> to be maximally expressive, you (just) need be able to delegate verification to arbitrary metaprograms
<water> concurrency must mean to include the notion of communications
<water> i mean, at high level as well as low
<Fare> on the other hand you _must_ be able to ensure that it is a same shared agreed-upon metaprogram that runs
<water> perhaps you should offer an explanation of where traditional designs map into this ontology
<Fare> the core of the controler is a "trust broker". It's like state in a libertarian constitution: does nothing itself, but enforcesses private contracts.
<Fare> water: let us consider GNU/Linux as the traditional design
<water> k
<Fare> the controler can delegate all checking to the code verifier; its goal is only to enforce the binding character of contractual agreements.
<water> well, leave the long story for the paper itself
<Fare> in GNU/Linux, you have a standard library; part of it has been moved into the "kernel". The "kernel" also comprises the monitor
<Fare> and the admission controler.
<Fare> but it is designed to work with a trivial compiler.
<water> sure, the kernel performs a base level of several of these (supposedly) orthogonal functions
<Fare> i.e. only hardware-enforced invariants are admitted.
<Fare> this is a hard constraint, dubbed "language independence", that actually means "low-level language".
<Fare> the admission controler is VERY stupid
<Fare> it only knows about statically-fixed name tags and bitmaps
<Fare> it cannot delegate anything, and doesn't enforce much
<water> well, most people expect language / application complexity to "control admission" :)
<Fare> not sure what you mean
08:20pm
<water> forget it
<Fare> only sure it's time for 3053
<water> ok
<Fare> bye!
<water> yeah
<water> anyway
<water> is anyone else still listening?
<eihrul> yep
<water> oh good, i thought fare drove everyone off :)
<water> he got a little long-winded, there
<eihrul> phd training?
<water> do you have any more slate docs requests/suggestions?
<water> heh
<eihrul> not yet
<water> ok, i'm adding and refining quite a bit here
<water> not much new to you
<water> just lots of clarification
<water> (which i guess makes your part easier anyway)
<water> btw, the co- prefix has to do with taking the category describing an object and reversing the arrows
<eihrul> well, i usually take it to mean a reversal of a relation
<eihrul> which i assume is close if not similar :)
<water> close enough yes
08:30pm
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<water> it'd be nice to have a range of object activity types from passive to active, or something like that
<water> bleh, i hate wishlist statements like that
<water> it shouldn't work like that at all
<water> hm
<water> take a look at that paper, and let me know if it works for you
08:50pm
<eihrul> k
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<water> btw, do you auto-accept dcc stuff using your client?
<eihrul> nope
<water> k
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
09:00pm
<lar1> I should take off
<water> hm?
<water> ok
<lar1> Will you be buisy all of tommarow, water?
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<water> i'll be here tomorrow by 6pm
<lar1> Ok, but will you discuss some #{} or just tunes?
<water> well invite me, and i'll go talk
<lar1> Ok, good deal
<lar1> Later!
<water> k
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Yeah, yeah... ;))
09:20pm
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<water> hm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
<AlonzoTG> I started a Brain-computer-interface page today.
<AlonzoTG> =)
* water/#tunes sighes
<water> it'd be interesting to have intermediate-value caching modelled as a queeed update accessor message or something like that
09:30pm
<AlonzoTG> om
<water> s/queeed/queued/
<AlonzoTG> Are those words intended to convey some sort of meaning?
<water> but then it could only block on the particular clone used for the message-send or something like that
<water> nah, it's too complicated
<water> or maybe not
* AlonzoTG/#tunes formulates a hypothesis that water just likes to talk incomprehensibly.
<water> i was talking to myself, eihrul, and nay log-readers
<water> a/nay/any/
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at eihrul
<water> not to pot-smoking hallucinating os-coderz
<eihrul> clarify 'queued update accessor'
<AlonzoTG> that's for learning too much too quickly.
<water> a queued message in the port of the object acting as the slot
<water> like if i ask for some result lazily, and one of the sub-results is already available, it can forward it to the port of the receiver
09:40pm
<eihrul> a queued message being an not-yet-essential demand?
<water> sort of
<water> the receiver would be a blocked expression
<eihrul> well, could you elaborate on 'queued message' here :)
<water> sort of like in that paper i sent you on hybrid
<eihrul> well, haven't gotten to it yet
<water> k
09:50pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<water> bleh they use a really odd form of delegation
10:30pm
<eihrul> water: bbt... will code in school tomorrow :)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> ok
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (sleep)
10:50pm
-:- smoke [smoke@16dyn148.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- water [water@tnt-9-47.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep)
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-141.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
<nate37> hello.
11:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0301
IRC log ended Wed Mar  1 00:00:01 2000