IRC log started Thu Feb  3 15:15:48 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0203
IRC log started Thu Feb  3 15:16:00 2000
[msg(MODTUNES)] permlog 2000.0203
-:- SignOff smook: #TUNES (Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?)
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BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.
IRC log ended Thu Feb  3 17:10:24 2000
BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.
IRC log ended Thu Feb  3 17:10:24 2000
IRC log started Thu Feb  3 17:17:15 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0203
IRC log started Thu Feb  3 17:17:27 2000
[msg(modtunes)] permLOG 2000.0203
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<air> anyone here know howto use ipfwadm?
07:30pm
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<water> hey
<eihrul> hey
* eihrul/#tunes was thinking about leaves...
<water> leaves?
<eihrul> [foo [bar baz]]
<eihrul> er: (foo (bar baz))
<eihrul> i see as:
<eihrul> (foo (bar (baz)))
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<water> hm
<eihrul> so what does it mean to apply nothing to baz? :)
<water> that the function call will only return a function and not a value
<water> but functions are values
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<hcf> i reg'd #modtunes
<water> thx
<hcf> while the logger was away
<hcf> and: set #modtunes founder water, access #modtunes add hcf 500, access #modtunes add water 500
<hcf> i trust u can do the rest
<eihrul> but you have... bazMeta apply: nothing to: baz
<water> yes i can, but i didn't plan on setting it up tonight
<hcf> no prob
<water> hm
<water> ok i've been thinking about this from another perspective, but ok
<water> maybe apply doesn't belong
<water> maybe it should be bindingWtih:
<water> er... bindingWith:
<water> hm
08:20pm
08:20pm
<water> what do you think?
<eihrul> stilll thinking over that
<water> it doesn't quite work, it seems
<water> well let's see
* AlonzoTG/#tunes meditates on the wisdom of constricting the programmer to one language...
<eihrul> one language that can be eventually transformed into another one :)
<water> the seemingly logical thing to do here is to replace a list of argument bindings with messages, i suppose
<water> no wait!
<water> you're using applicative syntax, right?
<eihrul> yes and no
<water> well, which is it? :)
<water> i mean, you want 'result's, right? :)
<eihrul> kind of a mish-mash of the two :)
08:30pm
<water> ok i'll write the slate (as is) version of the same thing
* eihrul/#tunes was also pondering assignment and argument passing.
<water> foo (bar (baz result) result) .... er sort of
<water> the problem with what i just wrote is that the passing of the argument is not message-based
<water> (syntactically)
<AlonzoTG> my cat is pigging out on a treat I got it under my desk. =P
<water> this is where an implicit 'in' would help, actually
<eihrul> well, everything in my idea of the evaluator was just a message :)
<water> eih: yeah, but the syntax screws up the message syntax
<water> s/the syntax/your syntax
<eihrul> its not necessarily a message syntax
<eihrul> which is probably why the problem is there :)
<eihrul> it's just all this sexp....
<water> too much unsafe sexp, eh? ;)
<eihrul> yes, you need to cover sexp up
<eihrul> the equivalent of a sexp condom
<water> no, i want to divorce sexp from lisp
<eihrul> hey, it was your joke :)
<water> hm
* eihrul/#tunes jots down some more imaginary slate code to help him think.
<water> ok here's the argument for 'in': we can implicitly have argument passing syntax be an accessor to 'in'
<water> and 'in' would be a syntactic sugar for a set of "input" slots in the object
<water> actually
<water> this gains us a simple interface to applicative syntax, but at the cost of object-orientation uniformity, which has side-effects
<eihrul> ejemplo, por favor?
<water> i'm working on one
08:40pm
<water> hm
<water> ok maybe i don't see any major negative effect :)
<water> both ways of passing values to objects-as-functions require you to look at the object to know what it does
<water> at the same time, you can always pass arguments by binding to individual variables
<water> which yields oo partial-eval
<water> however, you can still have functional partial-eval if you make 'in' subject to things like lisp-style macros
<water> maybe this should just be part of the standard library
<eihrul> assigning the individual slots just seems cleaner :)
<water> yes
<water> i'll tag the concept for the stdlib
<water> but that leaves one thing open
<water> in slate, as opposed to normal oo, you have to know the name of the slot(s) that constitute input
<water> in order to apply values to methods
<eihrul> well, i don't see it as too much different from smalltalk....
<eihrul> you still need to know the individual parts of the message selector preceding the argument
<water> oh that's right for methods
<eihrul> though having to specify the initial selector is a pain :)
<water> but what about smalltalk blocks?
<water> hm
<water> i guess it's a redundant concept now
<water> blocks, that is
<eihrul> well, they're just self-less methods
<eihrul> that inherit others like themselves
<water> self-less?
08:50pm
<water> oh yeah
<eihrul> (they don't modify some object that holds them, where them => activation record + code)
<eihrul> or rather access
<water> yes i get it
<eihrul> though... 'filter' and 'map'
<water> heh
<eihrul> come to mind
<water> continue :)
<eihrul> well, they pump lists of arguments through a function
<water> lists or streams
<eihrul> 'in' almost seems justified for blocks if not for this purpose...
<eihrul> but then, in lisp, you can map many lists/streams through a single function
<eihrul> (requiring more than one argument :>)
<eihrul> so it could be useful to have different argument passing mechanisms for methods and blocks
<eihrul> because of the differing ways in which they're used
<water> hm
<water> explain
<eihrul> well, methods are usually invoked explicitly
<water> usually
<eihrul> by name...
<eihrul> whereas blocks are usually to make a given computation more generic
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<water> yeah, as nameless functional objects
<eihrul> so having a specific protocol becomes a hazard
<water> hm
<eihrul> though
<eihrul> you could probably make blocks from methods :)
<water> i think it's possible, though specifically i don't know what would be needed
<eihrul> well, you'd just build a block meta-object from the method meta-object.... change the application a little
<water> er
<water> ok, i can see that
<water> by changing the accessor meta-protocols
09:00pm
<water> and introducing a nameless(?) 'in'-like slot, perhaps
<eihrul> so blocks would not need to be a primitive
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<water> hm
<water> but would blocks still require special syntax?
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<water> s/special/applicative
<eihrul> not necessarily
<water> care to explain? :)
<eihrul> hold
<eihrul> er, did you mean syntax for block definition... or evaluation?
<water> well, i guess i could see it as possible to pass a stream of method-closures to the environment
<water> eval
<water> as in application :)
<eihrul> well, it just seems like a little meta-object hackery to me
<water> how would it be done?
<eihrul> a list that specifies the order in which slots are to be assigned...
<eihrul> and which slots, at that
<water> sounds like what i was saying
<eihrul> each application of an argument to the block just pops off the list
<water> huh?
09:10pm
<eihrul> well, in say (block argFoo argBar)
<water> you mean the list would be converted into a sequence of the appropriate messages
<eihrul> yes
<water> duh :)
<water> that infers applicative syntax, though
<water> what i was asking was if that were necessary
<eihrul> well, i see (foo bar baz)
<eihrul> as applying bar to foo, then applying baz to foo
<water> :P
<water> no kidding, dude
<water> i have absolutely no confusion as to what applicative syntax is
<eihrul> after looking up bar and baz in foo
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<water> how does this generalize to making the equivalent of "map", though?
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<eihrul> well, it merely saves the need of making the method/block/whatever conform to a more complicated protocol :)
<water> huh?
<water> what does "it" refer to?
<eihrul> well, blocks...
<eihrul> where slots are assigned by ordering
<eihrul> rather than by name
<water> no, not blocks
<water> applicative syntax
<water> blocks can still have oo protocols
<water> i.e. named slots etc
<eihrul> define applicative syntax :)
<water> how you propose to assign state to blocks is applicative-style
<water> and there's something wrong with it
<water> because you'll wind up *needing* macros to do proper partial-eval
<eihrul> so what's the alternative?
<water> we could go with the "in" feature via the mo, and sticking with the usual oo message-passing as a basis
<water> wait a minute
<water> blocks are obviously a special use of the notion of function
09:20pm
<water> we just need to support that notion
<eihrul> i don't see what's wrong with just having (foo bar baz) where bar and baz are messages cascaded to foo :)
<water> duh!
<water> we're talking about making a "map" or "filter" equivalent
<water> i don't want to have to have applicative syntax just to get them
<eihrul> sure, and i don't see why that's not possible within the framework we have so far
<water> i'm asking how would it be done within the oo syntax
<eihrul> just changing the mop to interpret bar and baz as arguments
<eihrul> er mo
<eihrul> -p
<water> oh geez
<eihrul> which requires some state to be stored somewhere
<water> look doesn't that sound odd, though?
<eihrul> within either the block object itself
<eihrul> or the mo
<water> hold on
<water> how would you get an mo whose point is to intercept message-sends and perform lookups etc to do that?
<water> it's totally outside what i've defined for it to do
<water> suppose "bar" happens to be a selector of "foo"
<eihrul> well, bar and baz get looked up in the environment
<eihrul> rather than in the block
<water> lol
<water> get precise
<water> define environment here
<eihrul> rmm, namespace
<eihrul> foo's mo treats them as selectors into the current scope
<water> and why should the mo handle blocks separately from other objects?
<water> this is bulls***
<water> in your idea, blocks are inconsistent to the object model
<eihrul> rmm, not really
<eihrul> or then methods are inconsistent as well, or atleast my perception of them
<water> yes really :)
<water> your perception, i'm sure
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<eihrul> fine, suggest something better
<water> i don't even know what you're thinking
<eihrul> which qualifies you enough to say its bullshit, certainly
<water> i don't even use namespace as part of my slate vocabulary yet
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<water> well, i do know of a better way to define a "map" of a function
<eihrul> well, self... moreso than any other namespace
09:30pm
<water> you basically pass a stream of messages to an object that include assignment
<eihrul> yes, that's the whole idea
<water> subscribing various functions to that object's 'result' at various points in the stream accomplishes "map" nicely
<water> but 'foo bar baz' is total bullshit
<lar1> quux isn't!
<water> it hides way too much to express anything
<water> we're dealing with lots of issues about immutability
<water> sorry, bbiaf
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<hcf> lar1: shush
09:40pm
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<water> foo
<eihrul> quux
<water> hm
10:00pm
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<rhigby> hello 
<lar1> Hey
<rhigby> hi
<rhigby> well this room is happenin'
<lar1> Yup
<rhigby> anyway... you are the guy who spent all that time trying to compile xicq... right
<lar1> Umm, I don't think I am...
<rhigby> err.. trying to help ME compile it
<rhigby> or did you help me wiht the zip drive
10:30pm
<lar1> I helped with zip I think and we never finished with xicq
<rhigby> ya
<lar1> Sorry I never checked up... howd it go?
<rhigby> i got it going
<lar1> Cool, cool
<rhigby> i figured it out myself
<rhigby> i dont know how but i did
<lar1> Heh
<rhigby> the reason i havent been online here in a while is because i was having linux problems
<lar1> Ugh... linux problems aren't cool
<rhigby> the problen was it wasnt installed... i needed to have win98 for gaming.
<rhigby> but i came back
<lar1> Ah
<rhigby> and guess what... i need to redo my zip drive... i got every thing but the fstab file... ci cant get it right
<rhigby> i made the folder/mnt/zip and found the device listing...HDB
<lar1> Hmm, I am not familiar with ci... well, its the thing that happens when I misspell vi ;)
<rhigby> i ment I not ci
<rhigby> i just got off work and i am tired
<rhigby> VERY TIRED
<lar1> I understand
<lar1> Whats I?
<abi> you are mailto:lar1@bigfoot.com or somtimes interuptable with a ^G (CTRL-G)
<lar1> quiet, abi!
<rhigby> i mean... i couldnt figure it out
<lar1> Ohhh
<lar1> mount /dev/hdb1 -t vfat /mnt/zip doesn't work?
<rhigby> yes it did... i am a retard
<rhigby> i just worked. 
<lar1> Ok, cool
<lar1> Nah, not retard, just tired
<rhigby> ok 
<rhigby> i will agree
<rhigby> ok so the fstab file will look like this.../dev/hdb1 /mnt/zip vfat,user, 0 0
<lar1> Should work
<rhigby> i am sorry for bugging you again... i am new and i am struggeling with the sipmlist things
<lar1> No problem at all
10:40pm
<rhigby> see i fix computers for my school and i know win95/98/nt like the back of my hand, and now i dont know anything
<rhigby> now i know how the teachers whos computers i fix feel
<lar1> You are in High School?
<lar1> Heh, yeah
<rhigby> ya
<rhigby> 11
<lar1> Cool
<rhigby> North Marion high school
<rhigby> `aurora, oregon
<lar1> Thats a ways from me
<rhigby> your from cali right
<lar1> Yeah, San Jose
<rhigby> kool, i used to like in modesto, cali
<lar1> Ah, thats not too far from here I don't think
<rhigby> about a 2 1/2 hour drive
<rhigby> ya
<rhigby> i moved to oregon 3 years ago
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<rhigby> i got sick of cal and moved.. no i live with my aunt kell and grandma dotty
<lar1> Sick of cali?  Hmm... I didn't know that was possible! ;)
<rhigby> you would love it up here dude... 
<rhigby> this is where the silicon valey is moving to 
<lar1> I had a teacher that moved up to Oregon last semester
<rhigby> all the big computer compnies are moving up here
<rhigby> intel has like 3 of its chip making plants here
<lar1> I thought SV was GTT (Gone to Texas)?
<rhigby> then what is SV
<lar1> Silicon Valley
<rhigby> ok
<rhigby> duh..?
<rhigby> well there is a shit load of jobs here
<rhigby> oregon had to bring in like a 150,000 new engineers and administrators to fill then
<rhigby> and they make damn good money. 
<lar1> Thats why my teacher left... cause his wife got an engineering job at Intel
<rhigby> my uncle is a national sys admin, and he said i could probally get the local admin possition the company has open. and it starts at 35,000 a year
<lar1> Sweet
<rhigby> my entier life is puters, thats why i am taking the time to learn lynix
<lar1> Take it! :)
<rhigby> and i havent even graduated yet
<lar1> Not even a legal adult yet
<rhigby> i am going to apply in 4 months 
<rhigby> i will be 17 then
<rhigby> insurance says no till i am 17
<lar1> That sucks
<rhigby> but i just have to wait till april 6
10:50pm
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<lar1> Hey kthulu
<kthulu> hey hey
<kthulu> anything interesting going on?
<lar1> I like yer nick... reminds me of KTVU and KTEH, 2 tv stations by me :)
<lar1> Not really
<kthulu> I was just on a channel of mimes
<lar1> Uh huh...
<kthulu> same in here?
<lar1> Mostly idleness
<kthulu> wow,  why even bother then
<lar1> Erg!  There are two people I need to talk to, and they arent around!
<kthulu> yeah
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<kthulu> k,  well I think I am gonna have to leave
<lar1> Ok
<lar1> Later
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11:00pm
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<rhigby> lo
<rhigby> the fstab still wont work but i can mount the zip wiht the command you gave me
<rhigby> i will brb
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11:10pm
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<rhigby> ok
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11:30pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0204
[msg(modtunes)] newlog 2000.0204.mod
IRC log ended Fri Feb  4 00:00:01 2000
IRC log ended Fri Feb  4 00:00:01 2000