IRC log started Tue Jan 11 00:00:01 2000
<water> you too
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<water> bleh
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0111
* water/#tunes takes a look at lisp philosophy
<water> the process of language development is beginning to really bog down
<air> have fun :)
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<water> it's really odd to look at self ebnf and try to minimize it even further
<water> heh. and watching windows barrely hold on to existence
12:10am
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<hcf> water: here?
01:20am
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* Fufie/#tunes yawns.. morning already
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<Fare> Gakuk
* smoke/#tunes wonders why scheme is considered to be a `bad' language
<smoke> especially compared to common lisp
<smoke> i'm starting to like common lisp very much, but i'm afraid there will be no good implementation of it available in the near future..
04:40am
<Fare> smoke: Scheme is considered "not a complete language" more so than a "bad" language, althoguh it does have some badness
<Fare> smoke: how are clisp and cmucl not good?
04:50am
<smoke> fare; i can't see any active development on both :(
<smoke> perhaps that isn't a bad sign, but it feels bad
<Fare> smoke: clisp and cmucl are maintained, at least
<Fare> they strive to implement all of the standard, so that any miscompliance is considered a bug, and treated by the maintainers
<Fare> now, of course, if you want _more_ than the standard (MOP, threads, etc), then YMMV
<smoke> hm i guess i'm a little too paranoid then
<smoke> using lisp gives you the feeling you're the only one doing so
<Fare> lisp has lost the celestial mandate, after all
<smoke> hm
05:00am
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<Fufie> smoke: clisp is actively developed at least
<Fufie> smoke: there is a new release every other month
<Fufie> as for alone.. yes, there are fewer lispers than most of us want.. but it is early spring in lisp land
<Fufie> the frustration over c++ and java will make people look for something better and many of those will find lisp
05:50am
* binEng/#tunes will take a Lisp class this spring
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<Fare> Fufmann: not if lisp stays in its present state
<Fare> (standard) lisp is unusable for modern purposes
<Fare> at least, C is "extensible" in a standard way
<Fufie> lisp will change. lisp is probably one of the languages that can handle change without ruining all the wisdom accumulated over the years
<Fare> the language can. Can the community?
<Fufie> if you say that c++ is the modern version of c, it is apparent that c didn't do well
<Fare> Frankly, I doubt it.
<Fufie> at change that is
<Fare> Fufmann: GCC is much better than K&R C.
<Fare> s/GCC/GNU C/
<Fufie> the lisp community will lose a few old and wise people, but I think it will happen
<Fare> I sure hope so.
<Fare> anyway, the 1990 CL is doomed
<Fufie> but the only way it can change is when TNG makes a new system which is great
<Fare> and the CLers seem to not understand it
<Fare> Fufmann: are we TNG?
<Fare> in the meantime, people like the pliant community seem to do great
06:10am
<Fufie> comp.lang.lisp is not a good measurement
<Fufie> most CLers want CL to get new life
<Fufie> fare: we might be TNG
<Fare> I see more life in OCAML than in the whole CL community (as far as communities go)
<Fufie> I find the smalltalk community to be a parallell.. it was dying.. but Squeak seems to have gotten life into the community again
<Fufie> but people need a friendly (and free) environment they can hack code in.. 
<Fufie> as for myself.. once a base is up and somewhat running I can add a hypermedia system (like xanadu) pretty quickly and development tools to be able to inspect the system
<Fufie> important building blocks imho
06:20am
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<Fufie> hi
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<Ghyll> hi
06:50am
<Fufie> how is your daily rhythm nowadays? still weird?
<Ghyll> 07:00 - 22:00
<Ghyll> so, yes.
<Fufie> wow
<Fufie> I am still at 11.30 - 03.00
<Ghyll> that's a pleasant one. I really hated 03:00 - 18:00..
<Fufie> luckily the dentist appointment was at 13.00
<Ghyll> it's usually not a real big problem to pick the hour of day.
<Fufie> soon the semester starts :(
<Fufie> lecture and groups at 10am
07:00am
<Fufie> i222 - programming language semantics  this semester
<Ghyll> Fufie: any fun ?
<Fufie> probably not.. the focus is usually on imperative languages
<Fufie> it could've been worse though
<Fufie> but it's algebra.. 
07:10am
<Fufie> and the chalboard-cowboys at the institute love algebra
<Fufie> chalkboard
<Ghyll> you got that right.. 
<Ghyll> especially if they can cram a tree in there.
<Ghyll> if it's their lucky day, even a k-ary  one.
<Fufie> so I sense some sarcasm towards yours truly there? :)
<Ghyll> it was the word "cram" that revealed me, right ? :)
<Fufie> trees are nice
<Fufie> all trees
<Fufie> even pine can be nice
<Fufie> unless used as furniture
<Ghyll> then it suddenly attains geometric properties, and that reminds you of matrices and linear algebra, right ?
<Fufie> yes :-/
<Fufie> and it looks bad
<Fufie> the linear algebra book can't be used to hit people over the head
<Fufie> sucky book
07:20am
<Ghyll> my linear algebra book can be used for that purpose. but I find webster's more suited to that taks.
<Ghyll> taks/task
<Fufie> do not underestimate your calculus book
<Ghyll> didn't think of that. I like the engineering maths book more, but it's paperback.
* Fufie/#tunes is in no mood to do anything remotedly useful.. pulling teeth sucks
<Ghyll> Had I thought it would help, I'd hand you one of my very soft cookies..
<Fufie> what brand?
<Fufie> don't say home-made :p
07:30am
<Ghyll> McVitie's, I believe..
<Fufie> jaffa cookies?
<Ghyll> Yup.
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* Fufie/#tunes says to himself "debugging is fun"  "debugging is fun"  many times
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<Fufie> hi again
<Ghyll> hi
09:20am
<Fufie> just updated the lisp-code, do an update and the java-code will at least go through csf2sdoc and sdoc2doc and generate docs.. 
<Fare> java? ouch
<Fufie> it's a java front-end which collects interesting information about java-code and saves the info in a a common format we use in SDS
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09:30am
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* Fufie/#tunes finds some pesticide for an elusive bug here
* Fufie/#tunes kills the bug.. 
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* Fufie/#tunes kills ya ugly bug
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<Fufie> hmm.. it works :)
11:00am
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<binEng> Hey, has anyone else here got spammed by Kiril Koval?
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11:40am
<Fufie> bin: no.. 
12:00pm
<binEng> just thought it was an unusual one
<Fufie> what kind of project do you work on?
<binEng> me? well..
<binEng> I'm thinking of how information models can be made explicit in the whole syftware system so you can automate reasoning and operations that needs such info
<binEng> A typesystem, you could say
<binEng> .
<Fufie> hmm.. ok
<binEng> a little related to S14, maybe
<binEng> maybe even SDS too
<Fufie> yeah.. 
<Fufie> it seems to be Prism/SDS related at least
<binEng> Yes. Maybe it has a broader goal, though.
<Fufie> yup.. SDS would be a tool for such a project
12:10pm
<binEng> But only for source code-related domains, I understand?
<Fufie> SDS is mostly for source code yes
<Fufie> a slightly important part of most software
<binEng> I guess
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<Fufie> but far from the only perspective
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12:20pm
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* Fufie/#tunes stretches
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<ult> Woot.
<Fufie> hi
02:00pm
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!lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14).
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[ TUNES     ] [ ult       ] [ smoke     ] [ AlonzoTG  ] [ zarq      ] 
[ Fufie     ] [ smkl      ] [ Fare      ] [ abi       ] 
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<Fufie> ack.. they're not extraditing pinochet to spain :(
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<Kaufmann> Hey guys
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial326.infolink.com.br] requested PING 947629821 from #tunes
02:30pm
<Kaufmann> Anyone...?
<Fufie> not really
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> Anyone care to explain how lambda calculus is inadequate?
<Fufie> it's a mess to write anything but simple examples
<Kaufmann> in comparison to what?
<Fufie> you in comparison to.. scheme
<Fufie> s/you//
<Kaufmann> ?
<Fufie> in pure lambda caluclus you don't have names.. those are useful
<Kaufmann> aaaaaah
<Kaufmann> Stanley mentioned arrow theory and combinator theory
<Fufie> and using Y for all recursion is not awfully readable
<Kaufmann> Y?
<abi> Y is done in the same way
<Fufie> Y is the Y-combinator which is a neat hack to make recursion possible in lambda calculus
<Kaufmann> ah
<Fufie> remember that for ordinary recursion you need a name
<Fufie> pure lambda calculus is a straw man, although a cute one
<Fufie> it is however the basis of functional languages
02:40pm
<Kaufmann> back
<Kaufmann> so what is considered a better theoretical model for programming?
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<AlonzoTG> It was my understanding that they are all equal.
<AlonzoTG> Anyway, lambda calculus is less kludgy than turing machines.
<Fufie> I think the best theoretical model for programming is a cold bottle of coke, pringles, dip and maybe some chocolate and enough time to make something one can be proud of :-)
<Fufie> it's a theory though..
<Kaufmann> LOL
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<Kaufmann`> GOD DAMN IT
<Kaufmann`> Where were we...?
<Fufie> we were discussing coke vs lc vs turing
<Kaufmann`> ah
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<Kaufmann`> coke is eevil
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<Fufie> pah.. that's your teeth speaking
<Fufie> don't listen to your teeth.. they have an agenda
<Fufie> they hate sugar
02:50pm
<AlonzoTG> no, the shugar isn't what does it, coke has too much phosphoric acid... that's what kills your teeth. =P
<Kaufmann> Sugar? I thought we were discussing cocaine, not coca-cola :)
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<AlonzoTG> om
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<Kaufmann> anyhoo
<eihrul> ?
<eihrul> sheesh, squeak mlist is pretty active
<Fufie> is it readable as well?
<eihrul> eh?
03:00pm
<Fufie> is the mailing list readable for non-smalltalkers or is it very inside?
<eihrul> mostly small, private discussions
<eihrul> and a lot of them... it dwarfs the other 4 mailing lists i'm subscribed to
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<Kaufmann> can anyone enlighten me on the discussion re. JOY?
<Kaufmann> ... on the Tunes list
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<Fufie> does anyone have a good lisp walker?
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<lar1> Hey
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04:10pm
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<eihrul> Fufie: make one :)
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<Fufie> hmmppff
<Fufie> I just might have to do that :-/
04:20pm
<Fufie> but not tonight.. I need sleep.. good night.. (afk)
<eihrul> Fufie: just make sure to release it when you're done
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<eihrul> hcf: can you specify many messages to abi at once?
04:30pm
<hcf> eihrul: how do u mean?
<hcf> in order to put in many factoids?
<eihrul> multiple queries
<eihrul> without having to re /msg abi
<hcf> nope
<hcf> no dcc or multi query
<eihrul> would be useful (hint (hint))
<hcf> abi: oznoid?
<abi> oznoid is probably at mailto:lenzo@cs.cmu.edu or at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lenzo
<hcf> send him the suggestion
<eihrul> where's the source to abi?
<eihrul> (it would probably be a trivlal modification)
<hcf> www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/src
<hcf> and
<hcf> abi: infobot?
<abi> infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
<hcf> abi: infobot is also at www.infobot.org
<abi> okay, hcf.
<eihrul> what is infobot written in?
<hcf> abi: infobot =~ s/org/org (newer)/
<abi> OK, hcf
<hcf> perl
<eihrul> doh... out of my league then :)
* lar1/#tunes could do it
<hcf> i could do it too
<hcf> likely easily
<eihrul> but will you?
<hcf> but i dont wanna fuss w/ oz's code anymore
<lar1> I can't do anything till friday
<eihrul> just needs to interpret ; as the start of a new query
<lar1> why not, hcf?
<hcf> lar1: look at the infobot srces, u may understand
<lar1> Ah, its a readablitiy issue then
<hcf> lar1: hairiness
<hcf> and at times down right bad coding
<eihrul> hairy bits.... such a mental image
<lar1> Heh eihrul
<lar1> hcf:  That sucks
<lar1> Well I would do it, but I really can't afford adding more to my queue
<lar1> Its near more then I can handle already
04:40pm
<hcf> lar1: exactly
<lar1> Ounces can't be converted to grams, right?
<eihrul> yes... they're two different types of units though
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<lar2> I need to know how many grams 14.5oz of tomatoes is... surley somone has figured this?
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04:50pm
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> why do people even bother using ounces anyways?
<lar1> No idea
<eihrul> http://www.acces.net/local/weights.htm
<lar1> Metric is the far superior system
<eihrul> if you haven't noticed, the average human is about 70,000 grams or so :)
<lar1> Thanks alot
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> 70,000g eh?
<eihrul> (yes, they're using some foreignish notation for decimal places)
<eihrul> which is why i brought it up :)
<lar1> woah, they are!  I didn't notice that
<eihrul> abi: selflinks?
<abi> i haven't a clue, eihrul
<eihrul> hcf: what was the factoid again?
<hcf> air: self links
<hcf> abi: self links?
<abi> self links are at http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_self.html
<hcf> fucking a nicks
<eihrul> rmm, the one with all the papers on it?
<hcf> eihrul: u use 'abi: scan for <perl-regexp>' too
<hcf> s/use/can use/
<lar1> Ooooo, hcf is pissed ;)
<hcf> lar1: yeah right
<eihrul> hcf: oblige him to change his nick back to qzx :)
<lar1> Just _QZ will do
<hcf> mr_brix perhaps
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> Brix are $.17 a peice at the local hardware store
<hcf> eihrul: correction 'abi: scan for [maxhit] <perl-regexp>', maxhit defaults to 5
<lar1> How the hell am I suppossed to know the mass of a medium onion?!?
* eihrul/#tunes doesn't know perl.
<hcf> lar1: check the onion faq
<eihrul> i already established that
<lar1> hcf:  Is there such?
<hcf> lar1: dunno
<lar1> hcf:  Heh
<hcf> eihrul: man perlre or just ur substrings
<hcf> s/ur/use/
<hcf> lar1: couldnt hurt to look
<lar1> TBS is tablespoon, right?
05:00pm
<hcf> abi: mathsym is "the earliest uses of various mathematical symbols" at http://members.aol.com/jeff570/mathsym.html
05:10pm
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<lar1> Do all published documents need to be reported to the Libary of congress?
06:00pm
<AlonzoTG> no, only if you want to be copyrighted...
<AlonzoTG> Just saying "copyright 2000" protects you untill 2002
<AlonzoTG> =P
<lar1> You don't need to file papers and pay $$$ for a copyright???
<lar1> Ok, I was eating a naval tangerine, and there was a seed.... if I plant that will the tree be naval????
<AlonzoTG> very likely.
<lar1> Sweet
<lar1> Why was there a seed in the naval tangerine though?
<AlonzoTG> *shrug* I don't eat fruit.
<lar1> heh
06:10pm
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<lar1> What causes mucles to "knot"?
<lar1> Sorry for creating noise, but these are burning questions!
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06:20pm
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<lar1> Hmm, whats wrong with this picture...
<lar1> 'flood near liberia' on alta gives me: . !> 100% FREE <! blow job livesex toy toy toy oralsex videos sexy hardcore.
06:40pm
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<lar1> Hey water!
<water> hey hcf, i missed something you had to say just before you left
<water> hi lar
<hcf> water: it was sorta answered anyway
<water> well ok
<hcf> i was skimming the log
<hcf> so
<water> well, have you any ideas for me? some input perhaps?
<hcf> have u written anything up for slate?
<water> not yet... been working out lisp-level implementations in my head
<water> it wouldn't take long to write it up
<hcf> how does slate differ from ur oct
<water> since i'll wind up paring down sel
<water> oct?
<abi> well, oct is object code translation @ http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/richter/people/pilz/oct/
<hcf> oops
<hcf> old college try
<water> heh
<water> oh
<water> the oct was just a small lisp object system with a tinier mop developed from self's reflectors and mirrors
<water> and i didn't formalize a grammar for it at all; it was almost entirely a visual idea
<water> but then, i didn't know much at all then about mop's and the problems with mutability etc
<water> s/etc/and continuation-passing etc
<water> so, hcf, any thoughts?
<hcf> have u looked at visual lang stuff lately?
<water> not in the last four months, no
<hcf> may be another place to post to, possibly finding some help
<water> hm
06:50pm
<water> well, i already have some good papers on vis, data-flow, and persistent store relationships
<water> heh... i had a lot of time today to contemplate slate and arrow
<hcf> the sooner u post to the various camps (self,beta,etc) the better
<water> i found myself every two hours trying to make slate into arrow without realizing it for a minute or two
<hcf> since, as usual, #tunes isnt providing much help
<water> as usual
<hcf> tho a post to tunes@ is worth a shot i suppose
<water> i find it a bit odd to post for a language without formalizing it, but then perhaps GPLing the language grammar would be beneficial
<water> hm.. a new good paper on lanl
<water> well anyway i was playing with language design today trying to see the effects on mop possibilities
<hcf> put all u can up on ur hp
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<water> ok
<water> i'll try not to get too vague
<water> an interesting coincidence that i try to get this language while self porters get active
<hcf> abi: mathsym?
<abi> mathsym is "the earliest uses of various mathematical symbols" at http://members.aol.com/jeff570/mathsym.html
<hcf> icuc
<water> k
<water> interesting
<water> hm... evolution of mathematical syntax
07:00pm
<hcf> a while ago, u mentioned <> being used in something already, what was it?
<water> well, it's part of modal logic, but that's it
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<water> i don't think any company would bother me unless i typeset it or made a logo out of it that resembled their logo too closely
<hcf> hmm, google has a apple specific search now
<water> yes i noticed
<hcf> i just heard it on zdtv
<hcf> shows how often i use google
<water> heh... that explains some performance problems with my searches ;)
<water> wow. i seem perfectly content to let the current discussions in tunes go their own way
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<water> unless of course things die down without real progress
<water> hm. it seems Xerox has been suing 3com over Jot
<water> heh... and i wrote a similar program back in 91
<lar1> Whats Jot?
<water> the palm pilot's handwriting recognition
<lar1> Ah
07:10pm
<ult> bummer
<water> heh. someone at work today asked me to do a little cracking and phreaking research on several banking systems
<water> they expected complete results in 10 months if i took up the offer
<lar1> Heh
<eihrul> water: 'morning
<water> they also wanted me to set up a proxy server set of accounts, strong message-encryption, and strongly-encrypted storage
<water> hi eih
<lar1> water:  How was the pay? ;)
<water> they promised a percentage
<eihrul> water: any new thoughts/material on slate?
* ult/#tunes bonks eihrul
<water> yes, but nothing set in stone
<water> stop that, ult
* ult/#tunes bonks water =)
<water> mostly it seems best to start with self and modify from there
<ult> water: Your the one making puns about slate/set in stone =P
<water> lol
<water> i didn't notice
<lar1> heh
<water> i'll bet david ungar thought of hybridizing self with another language once or twice
07:20pm
<water> well, let's see
<eihrul> water: i've just been thinking about slots...
<eihrul> the notion of having certain messages that mute their contents (data)
<water> or add an object to a stream
<eihrul> versus messages that mute perform a functional action seems kind of hackish
<eihrul> (from the perspective of self anyway)
<water> which seems hackish?
<water> mutable or functional?
<eihrul> messages that perform assignments
<eihrul> on their host objects
<water> k, but sometimes it's all you need
<water> often you don't need to have an object history to ensure consistency, etc
<eihrul> from the perspective that data is just a constant function
<eihrul> it seems somehow "unclean"
<water> well, i don't see the lisp perspective as the king of computing
<ult> unclean? like pigs? The meat Pat Buchanen will outlaw if he ever takes presidency?
<water> er.. s/lisp/lambda
<eihrul> water: this is not from a lisp perspective... :)
<eihrul> lisp is even worse in that respect
<water> no, it's a lambda perspective
<water> and it's not the only way to do things
<water> i don't want to force a model on the user of the language
<water> mop's will definitely be a major concern of the implementation
<water> for instance, did you read the web pages on Joy?
<eihrul> i've been meaning too
<eihrul> but i have a lot of things to read:
<water> well, for joy, data is a 0th-applied function
<eihrul> self papers, beta papers, another arrow paper, lisp books, etc :)
<water> lol
<water> ok
<eihrul> abi: joy?
<abi> rumour has it joy is at http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/philosophy/phimvt/j00syn.html or a forth like functional programming language
<water> i really do read a lot, don't i?
<eihrul> ok, good... 
<eihrul> water: i'd guess so
07:30pm
<eihrul> okay, this is annoying
<water> well, anyway, i feel that any slate implementation should be self-hostable and reflective
<eihrul> this microsoft keyboard likes to spontaneously effectively depress its control keys or caps lock keys such that i can't type any letters
<water> not only that...
<eihrul> would it be tunesish otherwise? :)
<water> but i'd like to take the normal primitives of various programming languages and model them at an abstract level using slate objects (patterns?)
<water> which potentially could allow for re-implementation of the language using other primitives
<eihrul> what constitutes a slate object at this point?
<water> wow. slate can express rewrite quite nicely
<water> eihrul: the default? well...
<eihrul> yes, your bootstrap slobjects :)
<water> the default mop should probably specify that the first slot be (implicit) inheritance, the second be initialization code, and the rest be method (function) slots
<water> the initialization code's position could be variable by simple syntax variation
<water> actually, of course all the syntax of the object could be variable
<water> keep in mind that objects are again functions here
<eihrul> would methods be considered true objects as well (represented with initialization code), or will they be represented with a different atom?
<eihrul> ok
<water> and the method code will work within the 'block scope' of the object
<water> by default
<water> as for the initialization code, i'll look more closely at how beta does threads and co-routines before i decide for sure
<water> hopefully, this will be tonight
<water> i'd like to get a preliminary page for this set up, and announce the slate plans to the various lists
07:40pm
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<eihrul> it might be better if you wait to have some rudimentary specification first :)
<water> well, it wouldn't be hard to specify some of it, since self and beta specs already exist
<eihrul> least ye create another vapour.com :)
<eihrul> actually, .org in this instance
<water> i'm mainly focussed, though, on keeping it's "selfishness" primary, which means leaving more of the language features in the environment
<water> heh
<eihrul> that's the way it should be
<water> yes, that site made me pause a minute
<water> ok
<water> the self papers describe how they used the environment to optimize the language, and suggested how to generalize this idea to other languages
<eihrul> any specific forth paper?
<eihrul> er self
<eihrul> (sorry, brain fart, last thing i read last night)
<water> since they eventually got 50% speed of optimized c, i'd have to agree with their results
<water> hm
<eihrul> i mean which paper explains this :)
<water> yes i'm looking
<eihrul> (though 50% does sound impressive for what self is)
<eihrul> afaik, that's about on par with ocaml et al?
<water> not familiar with ocaml speed
<water> well, i'm not sure which paper offhand, but i'd say that "making obje-oriented langs practical" probably has some of that content
<water> hmm... cecil also has some interesting ideas (among many bad ones) about objects
<eihrul> abi: self links?
<abi> self links are at http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_self.html
07:50pm
<eihrul> oh, i have to read cecil papers as well :)
<water> don't bother too much
<water> it overlaps a lot with self
<water> but it also might be more intuitive for you
<eihrul> how so?
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<water> actually, there's a good blurb in "programming-as-experience" under "minimalism" that explains why self is so small
<water> dunno, cecil just works from a different perspective than self does
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<water> and perspective counts for a lot when learning new ideas
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<eihrul> what would that perspective be...
<water> dunno... the "non-simple language" perspective
<water> cecil supports a lot of grammar "out of the box"
<eihrul> or, not-"minimal"
<water> sure
<water> but it still has self features
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<water> hm. i can see how beta's ideas of virtual function could be useful for slate when developed by the environment
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<water> but even a generalized idea of virtual function seems to require an extra primitive
<water> so that incomplete functions are differentiated from complete ones
<water> i should keep investigating this aspect
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<eihrul> do you necessarily need an incomplete function?
<rares> incomplete?
<water> well, it would be nice to have incomplete initializers, i suppose
<water> rares: virtual functions
<hcf> rares: hello wage slave ;)
<eihrul> well, i mean to implement virtual functions
<rares> same to you hcf :)
<eihrul> hcf: everyone is
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<hcf> eihrul: i was refering to something water and rares were discussing recently
08:00pm
<rares> he didn't leave on my account?
<eihrul> hmm, if i neglect sleep tonight
<eihrul> i can have enough time to read some of these papers
<hcf> sometimes pingouts r shown as quits
<rares> I'm sorry if he doesn't understand that no one is going to create some sort of legal defense fund for sourcerers without having money first
<rares> i'm not a wage slave
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<water> bah
<rares> timing hehe
<rares> just when you came in
<water> darn win32
<rares> water let me ask you this
<water> no! stop! don't ask! :)
<rares> what you want to create is a system where an applications guts are available in realtime
<water> yes
<rares> and change as needed
<water> among other things
<water> that too
<rares> then we're in the same boat
<water> well, that's not everything to it, but ok
<rares> though I was looking at it more specific to the machine you want to generalize it
<water> i mean, you can argue that even linux is like that
<water> you mean more low-level?
<rares> i think we can work together in a while i just have to produce something that will fuel more projects
<rares> here's my idea:
<rares> have a system where
<rares> libraries can be replaced
<rares> that is libraries become mere pathways to the kernel and hardware
08:10pm
<water> i like the metaphor
<water> but to me, that's not enough
<rares> the way i was going to begin was to study elf then go from there
<water> hm... i'm not familiar yet with elf
<rares> for your stuff you shouldn't need it
<water> i didn't think so
<rares> there's a point where a library has little to do with hardware
<water> i'm sure (with exception of code format)
<rares> i guess i'm looking at the bottom half
<water> well, i want that bottom half to be worked by the top half
<rares> imagine installing libraries and having a profiler app build a working skeleton
<water> i can't
<water> i mean, i'm not familiar with a profiler app
<water> or what sort of skeleton you're talking about
<rares> imagine as in fantasize not actually think it out
<water> well, the terms mean nothing to me
<eihrul> rares: that is more or less clementine, afaik
<rares> preofiler hmm i should have said an optimizer ssomething that registers the new pathways to be used at run time based on the performance of the libs
* water/#tunes notes more useless replies from Laurent Martelli on the Tunes mlist
<water> hcf: you think i could write an mlist-independent slate announcement?
<rares> self's syntax is a little twisted you have to read middle to left then middle to right sometimes
<water> i don't want self's syntax
<rares> good :)
<water> besides, there is a better way to work it out
<hcf> water: would it be best?
<water> you have to understand how messages get parsed
<water> hcf: no, but it'd save time i guess
<water> actually, it would just make confusion
<water> hcf: n/m
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<hcf> as i thot
<rares> eihrul: it might be clementine but I think you would not want to see gnome or kde included in kernel just apps transformed
08:20pm
* water/#tunes is sick of people peddling low-level ideas in #tunes
<rares> sorry 
<eihrul> hey, i haven't peddled a low level idea in months!
<hcf> water: icuc, http://cs.wwc.edu/%7Eaabyan/Logic/
* eihrul/#tunes has been moving on up... to the high side.
<water> hmm
<water> thx hcf
<water> heh. did you search on "<>"?
<hcf> water: know a search engine that allows for puncuation?
<hcf> alta certainly doesnt
<water> hmm no
<water> maybe within quotes
<rares> try "blah, Blah!, blah?"
* eihrul/#tunes ponders how many papers he could read if he did not have to do homework.
<hcf> rares: alta doesnt index punc. at all
<water> eihrul: yes, concentrate on school
<eihrul> water: eh? its english/spanish/etc versus self/beta/etc
<rares> you're forgetting one of eihrul's probs
<rares> he prints out vars in Pascal at school and builds Oses and muds at home
<water> i didn't drop out because i didn't study, i dropped out because i *did*
<eihrul> basic, not pascal
<rares> eww worse
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<rares> water has a point there e:
<water> i was burnt out for quite a while, perhaps i still am
<eihrul> water: you try writing do loops and doing spreadsheets with a guy who also says "C+" and promoting Basic as god's gift to man
<water> heh
<rares> xchat i said nick completion now do it!
<eihrul> water: this is CS 2 AP, note
<water> eih: oh
<water> wow. i never heard of a cs ap course
<eihrul> they have them, but they're pitiful
<rares> AP in Bnasic
<water> i'm sure they are, as are almost all cs programs
<rares> what is this AP remnedial
<hcf> water: i'l be posting some links to review@, i think u'v seen 'em all already, so ignore 'em
<water> Advanced Placement: college courses
<rares> i know
<water> hcf: k
<rares> but Basic?
<water> lol
<eihrul> water: if this is the AP cirriculum, think about what the normal CS cirriculum will be if CS ever becomes a required subject...
<water> hcf: that logical foundations page was really nice
<eihrul> millions of students nation-wide learning C++ and Basic first
<water> heh. being programmed for low-level and lame ideas :)
<rares> what's to stop me from hosting Computer Science fairs
<rares> if I get rich
<water> *if* :)
08:30pm
<rares> I get to pick the topics (ooh poetry)
<water> hmm. what about introducing indirection to self?
<eihrul> how so?
<water> or would that be redundant?
<eihrul> don't slots already provide indirection?
<water> well, beta allows things like pattern variables and indirection, but it also has pointers
<water> yeah i guess
<water> hm
<eihrul> a one data slot object => indirection cell (well, two if you consider assignment)
<water> yeah, i actually use objects like that in my arrows code
<eihrul> is there any advantage to providing them?
<water> not sure, i'm working it out
<water> they *do* allow circular definitions, whether through self-references or references through loops
<water> which reminds me of hyperset theory and the formalization of stream-objects
<eihrul> wouldn't slots allow for circular definition all the same?
<water> (see the "a mathematical definition of reflection" mlist posts for urls)
<water> no, self and smalltalk don't allow slots to point to "self"
<hcf> water: links msg sent, i havnt given the last 3 urls b4, probly none of conseqence to u, i wont paste them now so as to not interupt slate talk ;)
<eihrul> how do they enforce that?
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<water> hcf thx
<water> well, it's just that you have to construct "self" before referring to it
<eihrul> and perhaps more importantly, why?
<water> it's a constructive notion of the object as container
<water> instead of treating an object as a true model of a concept
<water> hm
08:40pm
* eihrul/#tunes ponders how you would necessarily refer to "self" before constructing it.
<water> well, it's encountered in specifying streams as immutable objects
<water> since the stream's type satisfies X=(A X)
<water> where A happens to be the type of the object considered as mutable
<water> X happens to be the type of stream of objects of that type
<eihrul> so this problem is only inherent in specification of a type before hand?
<water> well, there might be other unexplored applications
<water> and having a loop of references would take on new meaning
<water> for instance, cecil *allows* circular inheritance (combined with multiple inheritance) to specify some interesting things
<eihrul> circular inheritance?
<water> but no one's apparently used the feature
<water> yes
<eihrul> could you give an example? :)
<eihrul> of how it could be used...
<water> well, i'll check the cecil-spec real quick
<water> ok they don't allow it in the current implementation, but they add that they might support it later on
<water> well, they suppose that it could be used for factoring a single large object into multiple separate objects
<water> where each implements a separate facet of the total object's implementation
<water> (which sounds vaguely like interaces)
<eihrul> but why can't that just be achieved by multiple inheritance?
<water> it can
<water> theoretically
<eihrul> then where does circular inheritance improve on this?
<water> but the implementation might hang for an ordinary implementation
<water> keep in mind that cecil is a bit different from self... more static, for instance
<eihrul> is slate going to be as such?
<water> i don't see it as helpful yet
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
08:50pm
<water> since part-objects could inherit from anywhere
<water> and those could allow for interfaces
<water> besides, the cecil idea requires the objects in a loop to implement disjoint methos
<eihrul> so circular inheritance is kind of multiple inheritance as applied to polymorphism?
<water> s/methos/methods
<water> i suppose so
<eihrul> (where instead of one object behaving as an ancestor you have many cooperating to compose the ancestor's behavior?)
* eihrul/#tunes is trying to second guess what circular inheritance actually does. :)
<water> yes that's the way i understand it
<eihrul> ok
<water> keep in mind they haveonly a short paragraph and no examples
<water> and perhaps circular inheritance could be useful in other ways
<rares> as long as neither of you tries to plug a power strip into itself and present it to Comdex you're fine :)
<eihrul> actually...
<water> lol
<eihrul> that could have been useful in some of my OO'd programming endeavors
<water> how so?
<eihrul> well, for instance, the chess program i was working on
<eihrul> i have a polymorphic chess program, and it got more specific as it was being derived
<eihrul> but, it had many unrelated components that needed to implement various functionality (logging, networking, rules, etc)
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<eihrul> which perhaps could have been done through multiple inheritance
<rares> hey D
<eihrul> but then you ruin the polymorphism of the chess object
<water> the chess *object*?
<eihrul> because it brings with it a rigid set of policy
<Downix> What's up?
<eihrul> water: well, it was a chess board object :)
<eihrul> but actually more like a chess game object
<water> oh, the *board*
<eihrul> not quite the board
<water> heh
<eihrul> (it implemented various aspects of a chess game, including a board)
<rares> logging/networkking could be external couldn't it?
<water> i think you should read up on oo programming styles
<eihrul> water: well, i'm not a newcomer if that's what you mean :)
<water> well, it doesn't matter
<eihrul> most of the books on oo programming style seem overly simplified...
<rares> cuz
<rares> they want to sell more
<rares> not teach more
<eihrul> more hype books than expedient books
<water> yep
<water> there's an online tutorial on mvc
<water> which i happen to like
09:00pm
<rares> gah why do I have to be haunted by ideas about how the world should be all I want is to gwet out of my mother's house
<water> lol
<eihrul> rares: because, we collectively, suck
<water> i'm not going there
* water/#tunes bites his electronic tongue
<rares> bzzzzt
<rares> toothache
<rares> n'm
* rares/#tunes changes his gnome theme
<water> ok the conversation has de-railled
<rares> sorry
<water> abi mvc?
<abi> water: bugger all, i dunno
<water> abi mvc is the model-view-controller paradigm of object-oriented design explained at http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/users/smarch/st-docs/mvc.html
<water> there's also the original Xerox PARC mvc paper as pdf
<water> well, for referencing, maybe the most important choice is what the default mode should be
<rares> every one say some thing
<water> or maybe a system of modes
<rares> i'm testing some stuff
<water> (anyone here into sleater-kinney?)
<rares> hwat?
<water> they're a grrrl punk rock band
<water> very good as far as punk is concerned
<water> heh... i think they're my age actually
09:10pm
<water> well, anyway, beta presents three kinds of composition methods
* eihrul/#tunes ponders if schizophrenia would make it any easier to read alll these papers.
<water> lol
<water> why schizo?
<eihrul> one could sleep while the other reads :)
<water> oh god
<water> anyway...
<eihrul> three kinds of composition methods...
<rares> i doubtit you'd be writing Como esta inheritance for Spanish homework and reading Don Queue
<water> beta allows you to treat part-obects as part of the whole, or as pure references, or also as nested blocks
<water> lol
<rares> sounds to me like beta wedges itself between the link from slot to its contents
<water> hm
<water> maybe the best choice is the pure reference mode with mop's allowing other interpretations
<water> it's most general, and doesn't sound too difficult
<eihrul> but its yet-another-primitive...
<water> how so?
<rares> i think the parts and nested blocks are just handy contexts they added to pure references
<eihrul> water: well, don't you mean to provide a reference as a default object by this?
<water> well, beta is nested by default
<water> hm
<water> references as objects would be expensive if used heavily
<eihrul> to me, they just seem implicit in the concept of slots....
<eihrul> since most objects are passed by reference anyway (save for small ones)
<water> there would be a reference object whether or not reference would be a primitive vice containership
<water> yeah, but even self doesn't seem to act like that
<eihrul> eh?
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<water> i think that the self guys thought the possibility of self-reference by an object's slots would be non-intuitive
<rares> it's not as bad as 640k but still
<water> well, i'm pretty sure that having references as the default won't be so bad
09:20pm
<eihrul> how are they represented?
<water> the gc will have to pay more attention to references, though
<water> probably just by name
<eihrul> i mean, would they just refer to slots or be free-floating objects?
<water> they would probably just refer to slots by default
<water> keep in mind, it shouldn't be too hard to switch modes
<water> just re-interpret the object structure using a different mop
<water> (i know that that's vague, but it's not hard for a lisper to grasp)
<eihrul> well, i'm new to lisp :)
<rares> i can hack lisp but not from scratch just enough to change options emacs
<water> a new mop would just be a n ay of evaluating the object
<water> a new way, even
<air> well brix now has a working shell
<Downix> great
<water> cool
<air> u can type commands
<water> what about the language?
<water> is that what the shell will be?
<air> shell/language whatever
<water> heh sorry
<air> shell will be the interpreted side of the language
<water> right
<water> hcf: why don't you join in the discussion much?
<water> you're here so often
<water> heh. ok now i understand :)
<hcf> lack of knowledge/experience
<water> haven't i covered so many topics, though?
09:30pm
<water> i mean in the channel
<rares> imagine the horror on teachers faces if we all got degrees by doing papers on this stuff
<rares> all cuz of irc
<water> heh
<water> i'd like that
<water> 8)
<eihrul> gah, education by irc :)
<water> the medium needs an overhaul, though
<eihrul> i dunno, i learn a lot more sitting through a month of #tunes than two years of school :)
<water> squeak happens to be working on some new ideas, like MuSwiki
<rares> i'm telling you the day I hit $2 or $3 million i'm going to start plowing the market
<hcf> they have classes on undernet
<water> hcf: really? on what?
<eihrul> oh, that medium
<hcf> irc basics, other topics i forget
<hcf> i got a global msg once
<water> hm
<hcf> the details r probly at the undernet site
<rares> irc basics sheeshg that's not a course it's a pamphlet :)
<water> yeah
<hcf> its a course for those w/o previous exp
<rares> you have no idea how little previous experience you when you want something really badly
<eihrul> .... /msg, /join, /names, /nick
<eihrul> quite enough to get around on
<water> yeah, #Class on undernet
<water> and #OpSchool and #OpSchool2
<rares> hasha
<water> but i doubt being an OPer requires high-quality education
<water> and i also doubt eihrul has enough knowledge to write papers ;)
<eihrul> well, it depends on the subject :)
<rares> he wrote a garbage collection paper
<eihrul> that was a research paper, man
<water> for whom, though?
<rares> i think himself ultimately
<eihrul> water: science project
<rares> that's how he managed to finish it
<water> heh
<eihrul> icky high school things
<water> hm more slate stuff
* rares/#tunes drools :)
<rares> go on
09:40pm
<water> oh i was just considering some uses, but that doesn't mean much for the spec
<water> it's basically just adding beta patterns to self
<water> and the effects for modelling things in the real world
<water> that can wait for later
<eihrul> sans virtual?
<water> ah
<hcf> water: put some slate poop up
<water> i still haven't gotten to the virtual issue
<eihrul> which you should probably get to
<water> as well as another one from cecil
<water> but i digress
<rares> umm why does my hd make noise when i move the mouse
<water> hcf: sure
<eihrul> rares: swappage?
<rares> i think i'm going to put netscape to bed
<water> good idea
<water> use kfm
<rares> moz 12 is solid so far
<water> much more light-wieght
<water> hm beta and self have similar ideas for object naming (or allowing unnamed objects)
<water> ok time to update the home page with a branch for slate
<eihrul> agg, i hate post script with no numbered pages
09:50pm
<water> anyone good at basic web design?
<water> eihrul: same here
<water> or rather, can someone suggest a good existing style of language-description page?
<water> hcf: any particular favorites?
<hcf> hmm
-:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh1-port63.snet.net])
<water> of course, it's a new lang, so there's no reason to give vapour much decorations
<water> just basic content format
<hcf> something like cecil's?
<water> can do
<water> you think i should name the reflection system mobius or not?
<eihrul> files are mutable :)
<water> heh
<hcf> water: its good enuf for now, proceed
<water> k
10:00pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<water> what's a good term for Lisp syntax?
<water> sexp?
<water> i mean, i'm looking for a term that will explain it in a few words
<eihrul> yes
<water> i know, abstract syntax trees
<eihrul> s expressions
<water> eih: but i want something more widely known
<water> ast's should be better
<water> hm.. i used both just in case
10:30pm
<water> is 'immutable' common enough to use in an overview?
<water> hcf: what'dya think?
<eihrul> i'd assume so
<eihrul> if its good enough for languages to use as a keyword...
<water> hm ok
<hcf> ur audiences know it right?
<Downix> hmm
<water> well, the people who work with multiple languages will
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10:40pm
<air> anyone know the ascii value for underscore?
<hcf> 95
<air> thank u, my chart has a space there
10:50pm
<eihrul> water: hmm, interesting... objects as namespaces
<water> yes
<eihrul> much cleaner than global
<water> oh yes
<eihrul> because afai can see, it would allow for things like modules implicitly
<water> yep, although i haven't checked out beta's module system yet
<water> i remember a long time ago i wrote the system as an os idea with the lnguage implicitly including a namespace accessing system modelled after shell languages
<water> so, '/' was block inclusion, ':' was inheritance (clone), '>' was function-call (i think), and there was another
<water> with '.' and '..' having the usual meanings when suffixed to a namespace accessor
<water> it was a toy idea
11:00pm
<water> i.e. i implemented it but never got around to really testing it out
<eihrul> thank ult :)
<hcf> so slate will be selfsh? ;)
<eihrul> do the puns never end?
<water> yep
<water> hey, it makes it more fun
<water> ok, i have some updates to upload
<water> nothing serious yet, but enough
<water> ok, check stuff out
<water> gimme some feedback
<Downix> man, nothing exciting
<water> sorry dude :)
<water> i'll add more, but it'll take a little time
<Downix> ok
<water> this is just to give an overview and be friendly to the reader
11:10pm
<Downix> ok
<water> oops, some typos
<hcf> water: slate will be fine-grained, right?
<water> yes
<eihrul> water: lisp and sexp also there letters with slate :)
<hcf> my deadtree dict defines slate as a hard, fine-grained, metamorphic rock
<water> cool
<water> except for the "hard" part
<hcf> enuf things r easy
<water> i guess that would translate to "raw ppower"
<hcf> its time for some hard stuff
<water> :)
<Downix> hmm
<eihrul> dictionary.com definition is better
<water> oooh
<water> yes :)
<eihrul> "A fine-grained metamorphic rock that splits into thin, smooth-surfaced layers."
<Downix> hmm
* water/#tunes does some typing
<Downix> hmm
<hcf> water: "<billh_> and you don't define reflective before you use it."
<Downix> hmm
<water> hcf: heh
<water> hm
<Downix> abi: quote?
<abi> downix: i haven't a clue
<water> hcf: how do you suggest i write that, then?
<Downix> abi:  Downix?
<abi> well, Downix is doing it right now
<Downix> uh huh
11:20pm
<hcf> water: defs can be added later
<water> k
<water> maybe i could referrence the tunes glossary
<air> water: what did u upload and where?
<water> any suggestions for info to add or typos to correct?
<water> air: check my home page
<hcf> air: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<water> or that
<air> hmm gonna have to read that tomorrow
<water> i didn't mention streams with immutable objects because i don't want just streams in the lang
<hcf> water: werent u gonna redo the glossary?
<water> erg
<water> yes
<water> but that can wait
<water> k, uploaded typo-fixes and the defintion (in why)
<water> what should fit under overview?
<Downix> hmm
11:30pm
<water> nothing? :)
<hcf> understandability
<Downix> works for me
<Downix> 8)
<water> lol
<water> who do you think i am, some normal language-implementor? :)
<Downix> lol
<water> i'm studying some pages for beta and cecil right now
<hcf> achieving
<water> achieving?
<hcf> u have ei
<hcf> accommodating
<Downix> ok
<water> huh?
<water> i guess my parser is buggy
<water> what the hell are you saying?
* Downix/#tunes is saying "hmm" and "ok"
<water> duh
<water> :)
<Downix> ok
* Downix/#tunes sets up a perl script
<hcf> iow, "om"
<water> lol
<Downix> every 3-4 minutes, in high conversation it goes "ok"
<water> well then, thanks for the input :)
<Downix> otherwise,it hmm's
<water> Dx: what's the diff? :)
<Downix> Nothing
<water> lol
<Downix> It's the Downix script!
<Downix> You too can be as cool as Downix!
<water> just put some company secrets on it that it spills at 4am every morning
<water> :)
<Downix> lol
<water> hmm i suppose GPL doesn't apply until we actually have code :)
11:40pm
<Downix> nope
<water> hm.
<hcf> water: have u talked to jecel lately?
<water> eihrul could probably write up a lisp implementation as soon as he groks it fully
<water> hcf: no not lately
<hcf> this looks good
<hcf> gonna write posts now?
<water> what the page?
<abi> the page is fixed
<water> thx
<water> hmm
<water> sure, mostly as looking for interested parties
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-110.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> ok
<Downix> hmm
-:- water [water@tnt-10-29.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<air> heh
<water> foo on win32
<air> well im off to bed, cya
<Downix> ok
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
<Downix> lol
11:50pm
<water> heh... now to find some appropriate subject titles
<Downix> ok
* Downix/#tunes gryns
* water/#tunes ignores the local perl script
* Downix/#tunes takes out a large tuna....
<Downix> Perl Script this
<water> lol
* Downix/#tunes attacks you with the tuna
<water> ack!
* water/#tunes unsheaths his trusty rapier
* hcf/#tunes hands water a tuna shield
<water> thx hcf
<Downix> ok, so that's the game you'llplay
* Downix/#tunes whips out a sythe
* water/#tunes makes fish pudding out of Downix's tuna
<Downix> Good for grim reapers and horror movie villans the world over
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> uhoh
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* water/#tunes thinks
<water> n/m
* water/#tunes runs!!!!
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* Downix/#tunes laughs
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* Downix/#tunes sharpens his sythe
<Downix> ah, fresh meat!
<water> yikes! :)
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* Downix/#tunes shhs, and puts the sythe away, and gets out a chainsaw
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* Downix/#tunes revs up the new chainsaw
* water/#tunes whips out the gatling gun
<water> eat flying lead!
<water> truce ok
<water> i need to work on slate
<Downix> Ok
* Downix/#tunes ponders
<water> hmm... for the self and beta lists, simply titling the mail "self/beta hybrid" would probably get enough attention
<water> for squeak, the perspective is different
<Downix> ok
<hcf> water: sounds good
<water> they'd be seeing a better language for their existing environment style
<Downix> alright
<water> so, "a new language in the style of squeak"?
<water> not quite right
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0112
IRC log ended Wed Jan 12 00:00:01 2000