IRC log started Sun Dec 26 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1226 -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [12:08am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us222.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp068.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes Hey _ruiner_! -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:30am -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Guadeloup [Guadeloupe@cr250960-a.poco1.bc.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- Guadeloup [Guadeloupe@cr250960-a.poco1.bc.wave.home.com] has left #tunes [] -:- Fare [fare@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has joined #tunes -:- simoz [sasas@a-mn5-93.tin.it] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff simoz: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective Computing System -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net]) -:- FareWell [fare@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) * Fufie/#tunes yanws.. ya lispmas morning Fufmann! -:- FareWell [fare@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has left #tunes [] morning :) 04:30am -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes set: there are several decent tools for that 09:20am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us139.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-150.s150.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.94] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-11.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.94]) hmm.. mails on tunes@tunes cool wow! =P 11:20am -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || Towards an Open System hmm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp155.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hey eihrul lo 11:40am what's up? nada mucho just playing with ocaml finally Same * Downix/#tunes found out why Clementine didn't work earlier. hehe tis pretty nice why? the new disk was gzipped you got a new disk? :( * eihrul/#tunes spent all last night making an OpenGL/sockets/etc chess hack. :) Same one you did, silly got it from start to buggily-working in a few hours :) Hehehe Ok Well, we'll see how it goes but, it really disgusted me how unstandardized some C++ facilities are that are part of the fscking standard and that all the supposed portability is just imaginary I know 11:50am eih: portability? Fufie: like i said, it doesn't exist what kind of portability do you mean? OS or Compiler portability? or atleast in the context of two different vendors implementing a single standard more like environment portability which is more of a melding of the two as they're both important factors we gots to gets that punk that posted earlier today in here... I want to discuss libertarianism with him. =) uh huh eih: the std was finished last year? eih: remember how long the simpler ansi c took to get working so when will it be standard? 10 years from now? when i won't need the language anymore? it will be a usable standard in about five year I guess c++ as of 92 is pretty much ok to write though * Downix/#tunes nods (ok as in compatible with compilers, and not 'ok' as in something nice :) lol * Downix/#tunes is talking OS's with a bunch of Amiga-freaks That is a good laugh everytime downix: I thought you were the resident amiga-freak ;) Fufie: I am, but the problem is I actually know how HW works, and more about OS's than they do Fufie: it is only okay so far as you stay in the encapsulated world provided by GCC Fufie: venture out, and you face the consequences Fufie: I keep hearing them go "USe QNX, it runs Amiga programs!" or "Amiga IS the OS!" which is a major laugh amiga is dead :) eih: not really.. see how much the c++ part of gcc changes.. I have a lot of code I need to go through to make it 2.96 compatible.. it was last tried with 2.7.2.3 eihrul: Amiga is dead, the concept is alive, but the Amiga itself is dead 12:00pm Fufie: not much Fufie: all they've done is made it a tad more strict lately eih: a lot of the rtti and template stuff and libg++ has changed one or two more errors get spat out, nothing big and C++ rtti is nearly useless.... rtti? Fufie: what would be nice is if you could have type signatures for methods that included the children of polymorphic classes defined in a virtual method abi: rtti is run time type information, a c++ hack to allow access to the vtable ok Fufie: and the C++ compiler could easily generate stubs that dynamic_cast'd for you or threw exceptions but otherwise C++ rtti is useless eih: anything related to c++ compilers are non-trivial and never ever easy * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. (my experience from doing work on c++ front-ends) there's a lot of room for improvement in all features of C++ like constrained parametric types C++ never made complete sence to me to be honest a better language for creating parametric types (which is part of the above) better handling of class namespaces * Downix/#tunes nods perhaps a real module system some day? :) references and pointers are very non-orthogonal concepts etc etc why bother with fixing a dead horse instead of choosing another language? Fufie: i have Fufie: I'm learning about C LISP still, not quite confident in myself for it yet i'm still learning it though :) downix: it takes time.. it's a very different paradigm Fufie: have been spending whole weekend reading through ocaml manual Fufie: Well, so far I'm learning a lot more about it, and I am very impressed eih: hehe.. Fufie: i looked at haskell as well... while being a prettier language, the compilers seemed kinda ad-hoc and old though i really like Hugs Fufie: I am thinking of using C LISP as the standard language on my system, or at least porting it to my system. (Would be very nice to use) downix: when you say 'C LISP', do you mean common lisp or the common lisp implementation CLISP? eih: haskell is nice, it fits on a disk as well :) Fufie: Common LISP ahh Fufie: not the specific implimentation ahh.. it is just so uncommon for lisper's to caps-lock the name :) that's the job of the system ;) OIC C Lisp then? Fufie: yes, but it doesn't seem to have the nice compiler like ocaml :) Fufie: i've been pondering a haskell -> ocaml translater though :) downix: CL is the easiest Fufie: Ok * Downix/#tunes knows he needs to figure out how to make a simulator/emulator tho eih: translators can be quite messy 12:10pm Fufie: yes, but it's the only way i'm going to get Haskell with an OCaml compiler :) its not as messy as a whole compiler or even as messy as writing a front-end for gcc :) there are front-ends for gcc? yes wow and i think haskell and ocaml are similar enough to easily translate from the first to the latter ocaml is just a tad bit more specific and imperative haven't really tried ocaml Fufie: Is there any place I could study up on sound assembly codes? don't know k How the hell do all of these programmers make drivers then, hehe 8) I don't know, I don't make a sound, even if I am in the forest and there is noone listening hehe -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial149.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes FOO! Awww, how cute... an EnchantedForest URL 12:20pm hey -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial149.infolink.com.br]) he forgot the someone's lost in there analogy... 12:30pm Fufie: hmm, ocaml is eerily like c++ crossed with haskell in a way * eihrul/#tunes sighs. 12:40pm y0 that guy who posted to tunes@tunes.org earlier today lives in australia! =((((( poor d00d... that's why his page was so strongly anti-government. 01:10pm our government isn't perfect either nope 01:20pm -:- ultima [ultima@user-38lcn61.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fagui [fagui@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has joined #tunes -:- Fagui is now known as Fare Gakuk! hey -:- Fare [fagui@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has left #tunes [] odd that was deep where is fare anyway? fare is, like, sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree abi: i said where! eihrul keep in mind abi was originally designed as in infobot for storing URL's...it probably translates what into where =) gah .../whois abi she says she's a borg i'll trust her to know what where means! but...abi's an infobot... its just imagery but with a big brain! hmm tril is logged into bespin not idle 01:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us906.javanet.com] has joined #tunes * ultima/#tunes rapidly toggles hcf's bus lines y0ink -:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Read error to ultima[user-38lcn61.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) there is a windstorm in france... 01:50pm -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: the quilted quicker picker upper) !sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT jordan.openprojects.net 8000 from is -:- binEng [Anders@d212-151-56-239.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[d212-151-56-239.swipnet.se]) -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii2-55.tin.it] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp445.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) om -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) 03:10pm -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes HELP!!!!! =\ EyE KaHnT KoDe. :) Fufie: sigh, ocaml seems way less clean than haskell the need for pragmatic solution often ruins initial elegance but ocaml is overly pragmatic :) it reminds me of C++ this is not good haskell has a very pragmatic type system yet it is way more elegant go CL then, it has still elegance even though it is practical but does it have good compiler systems? :) yes implementations ranging from free to very expensive well, free would be nice :) being the unemployed student that i am a student could use ACL which is normally the very expensive one, but is gratis for students.. www.franz.com (it's gratis for linux and fbsd) ACL? i think ACL is Allegro Common LISP, free of charge proprietary software at http://www.franz.com 03:20pm Fufie: but i'm looking to do system programming in it :) Fufie: in which case an open implementation is better than trying to hack something closed into a system CMUCL may be what you want, but it is not too good for learning the language.. common lisp systems are however much more open than other language systems as they are pretty reflective and you can change the implementation yourself as it is dynamic sheesh, why does choosing a language have to be so confusing? :( ie you don't need access to source code as desperately as you do in c/c++/java/etc !is:*! anyone know what's up with jordan ? its like trying to decide your preferred method of execution * eihrul/#tunes sighs. execution? being shot would be nice sure, but either way you end up dead but it's less messy and painful than going through a lawnmower yes, but in 1 minute you won't remember any of it :) 03:30pm no matter which way you go you're dead you can take the pretty language you can take the ugly language there's always some little con! but an ugly language as c++ has many ugly parts and cons.. elegant meta languages don't suffer that badly ocaml doesn't look any better in this respect though too many special purpose primitives all cluttered together oh doesn't sound too nice 03:40pm perhaps i haven't look at the language closely enough though... its just nto giving me good vibes HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at eihrul * AlonzoTG/#tunes works Fufie over with a 2x4 * AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps mibin around a bit with a large trout. yes love, what is your problem? :) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Read error to mibin[a-ii2-55.tin.it]: EOF from client) I need help with this file. change the ';' in the main() argument list to ',' Fufie: how large is the core lisp language? I need to 1 get the lengths of a list of files; (bailing out if they don't exist) Fufie: neglecting standard libraries made *from it* int main(int argc; char *argv[];) should be int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { ... } okay fixed... -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii2-55.tin.it] has joined #tunes The problem I am having is with this: alonzo: as for length of files, which OS do you have? D0S. for Unix-like OSes it isn't too hard.. see in the comp.lang.c for examples on how to use stat DOS.. ugh you don't need stat you can just use fseek () to SEEK_END and ftell () umm yes.. but using stat() is recommended for speed and lesser memory-use sure, but for a one time run program i don't think its an issue fseek/ftell is a butt-ass ugly solution when I don't want to open the files (yet) cuz I hafto open them again later in the prog... al: if it's DOS, check the msdos-programmer faq.. I think there was a simpler solution Fufie: well, what about my lisp question? :) and Wintendo has a system call for it 03:50pm eih: which lisp-question? Fufie: how large is the core lisp language? Fufie: neglecting standard libraries made *from it* eih: the core of common lisp is pretty small what primitives are provided? fuck this. It is T00 UGLY!!!! primitives as in? primitive types? -:- AlTeRnAtIvE [AlTeRnAtIv@ppp67.greco.com.br] has joined #tunes hi all I have to fopen, fseek, ftell, fclose in that order to just getfilelength. =\ alonzo: use a proper un*x-system then AlonzoTG: which compiler? BC++ 4.51 Fufie: things that the language provides that are not expressed in the language itself eih: it is somewhat hard to answer as one could manage with a really small set of operators and types and implement the rest out of it, but the rest wouldn't be fast enough Fufie: okay, so what about for the fast implementation? :) ie the object system can easily be written in simple common lisp, but the object system is usually given a native implementation and really tuned AlTeRnAtIvE: ask the channel eih: as for fast I have managed to get to c++ level roughly but it took work eih: the more experienced lispers talk about c/fortran speed I'm looking for a free C compiler. Can anyone help me ? (i just have de Quick C - that sucks..) alt: which OS? gcc? hmmm... gcc is crap. glibc 1 and 2 are crap. * Fufie/#tunes looks at abi, mildly amused haha 04:00pm -:- SignOff AlTeRnAtIvE: #TUNES (Leaving) *SOB* it looks like /me will have to write his own flaming library if he wants this done reasonably efficiently. =\ Fufie: i suppose i'll just wait for my lisp books to arrive then and hold off on ocaml for now Fufie: its primitives were truly so... they could not be easily expressed with the language if one desired Lets assume I can get file lengths within the next few months of computation, How can I coppy files QUICKLY in C? al: system("cp foo bar"); or use mmap() AlonzoTG: http://www.snippets.org 04:10pm -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial524.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes Kaufmann with an Iron Butterfly * Kaufmann/#tunes blocks Al's strike with a Led Zeppelin Al, why do I want this file? * Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Al Al, is this program supposed to do anything, at all? I need help with it. cuz I can't code. =\ ah what do you need help with? I need to verify the existance of and get the size of a list of files... 04:30pm ah, that's all? do you need to do this in Perl, tho? s/Perl/C/ It's damn easy in Perl al: do it in common lisp ;) FILE-LENGTH and PROBE-FILE :) Fufie: what if the environment doesn't have files? :P open OUTFILE, '>'.shift(@ARGV); for (@ARGV) { print OUTFILE (-e && -s) }; close OUTFILE; exit; eih: if the environment doesn't have files, what point would thwere be in "verify the existance of and get the size of a list of files..." Fufie: al's problem :P obviously LOL my solution, however, is short and elegant can anyone suggest a good hexadecimal magic number? (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (if (probe-file x) (file-length x) nil)) lst) 32 bits in length preferrably? Gemme a lisp interp and I'll do it. that is reasonably unused? 00 and FF are always good choices 04:40pm ah, 32 bits The program needs to create a table of file offsets and then save that table as well as the files into one big file. 00000000 or FFFFFFFF but aren't they common? :) or atleast easily mistakeable om =\ 0xB0B 00000000 is exactly as common as any other 32-bit hex number... maybe less so in format-specific binary data, and more so in ASCII 0xDEADBEEF okay fine i'll go with deadbeef just because i like it and even if lotta people probably use it :) 0xDEADC0P heh that's 28 bits hmm.. P should be included in hex * AlonzoTG/#tunes pondering paying one of you $25 to finish this program... Alonzo, couldn't you be a bit more specific about your program? 0xAFFEC7ED well it has to create a file containing a number of input files similar to copy a+b+c d but it has to generate a list of file offsets at the beginning of the file. good enough :) need sleep.. goodnight.. afk Funny link: http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/Mage/deadbeef Al, what do you mean by offsets? How far down the file does your next file begin? =\ hmm. I just came up with a grotesque workaround. How do you coppy a set of files into a gnu file? 04:50pm interest in this conversation seems to have drifted away :P Fuck this, I'm beginning to design my file format around my shitty language (C) =\ maybe I'll hire KIETH. LOL I've already stripped it down as much as I can. =\ 05:00pm All I want to do is find the length of a bunch of files and then coppy them into a new file... -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii2-55.tin.it] has left #tunes [] There's probably a Unix shell script for that. =\ ah easy to do huh? !NickServ:*! HyrliK used GETPASS on arpwatch Okay how do I coppy them into the new file easily? AlonzoTG: ur dos shell can probly do it forget DOS... I want it to be minimally portable. dos can't do stuff like that anyway. open OUTFILE, '>'.shift(@ARGV); for (@ARGV) { -e && open FILE, $_; print OUTFILE -s, ; close FILE; }; close OUTFILE; exit; does that save a list of file offsets at the beginning of the file? hmm... I think I have a workable solution... lemme write that now.... -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial524.infolink.com.br]) 05:10pm =\ yelp! Gelp! Kelp! Lelp! Nelp! Jelp! Velp! .elp! oelp! ;elp! zelp! relp! pelp! eelp! -:- Fare [fare@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has joined #tunes Gakuk! * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Fare!" :-) lo howz da weafer? weather Stormy yep, its on the n00ze in the US trees are unrooted 26 dead in France due to the wind. 05:20pm damages to the house. less than 10 years ago, tho. I am batteling C to try to force it to generate one of MY programs rather than just another C program... hum. How that? I need to get it to coppy binaries from .bin files and create a .img file... .img? what I'm trying to do in DOS is: copy a+b+c d but I also need the length information of each file. hehe. Put it in each files' header! get any existing OS, to see how they do it tww.... hmm.... just get NASM to do it.... now that is supprisingly elegant! 100% manual.... fantasmagorically bugphilic, but doable! MaHn ThAt Is UgHlIe.... If this works, I might even write a kernel for Tunes! =) thanks, fare! =) ATG: I once did it w/ as86+m4 (ouch) seen the Tunes 0.0.0.25 stuff? 05:30pm Fare: i read through ocaml manual Fare: seemed as if ocaml was almost C++ all over again... even though it was functional in some respects, it just have a monolithic amount of primitives uh???? eihrul: what have you been smoking? muscle relaxants * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. ocaml, monolithic? It has maybe the most advanced module systemaround. as for "functional in some respects", that's laughable. well, not in all respects it's as functional as can be (if you except Haskell or Clean, perhaps) what do you call mutable variables? functional in some of its respects i should say ok, it has some kind of (somewhat crude) object system (that ain't that much used, since it has crude aspects) eihrul: 'a ref yes, crude is what springs to mind eihrul: most people don't use it eihrul: they use the functional part of the language, without bothering with objects where can I grab a gnu coppy of NASM? there was a nice talk by xleroy at ICFP about modules vs objects Fare: then what's the purpose of using ocaml if not for the objects? over say, caml?