IRC log started Wed Dec 15 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1215 -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn204.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn204.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf01.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes hi 02:00am -:- FareWell [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff FareWell: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf17.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf14.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes anyone here know 'Pliant', the language? :) have had a quick look at it and? zero interesting fufie; i've layed my hands on some books on common lisp btw, it seems like great fun cool :) which books ahve you gooten? gotten the most interesting one is Object Oriented Common Lisp then also something called 'On Lisp' (on common lisp?) and two other less interesting books and i've increased my collection of common lisp implementations with gcl :) 04:10am On Lisp is an excellent book there's a great deal on macro's which may prove useful gcl is a bit controversial, cf discussions on comp.lan.lisp oh? On Lisp is _the_ macro book and it is also shows how to write embedded languages On Lisp is a book one can read many times and still learn new stuff from every time i wondered what implementations can compile to native x86 code, and what the advantages of doing so would be ACL, CMUCL and LW compiles directly to native code GCL and a few others compile to native x86 through C ah! and clisp? (was any of the two less interesting books "ANSI Common Lisp"? it is really nice) clisp compiles to bytecode which is interpreted by clisp no, i had looked for ansi common lisp, but it was not yet available here PAIP? PAIP is Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, Case Studies in Common Lisp does someone summarize the discussions on comp.lang.lisp? is also great :) deja.com archives comp.lang.lisp at least.. gcl has been discussed heavily the last two weeks so your news-server might have the posts ah M-x gnus abi: PAIP is "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, Case Studies in Common Lisp" and is written by Peter Norvig ...but paip is Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, Case Studies in Common Lisp... 04:20am hm the only thread i could read on gcl can be summarized by 'No one seems to know what the hostility towards gcl is' GCL some basic questions in an article someone says "GCL is probably not the best lisp for you to be using." and then the discussion was there again.. it is repeated somewhat often.. i suppose every implementation has its drawbacks? 04:30am i couldn't find one free implementation that dares say it's 100% ansi compliant LW and ACL are probably closest hm ACL's main drawback is that it is really expensive, otherwise it is probably your best bet (apart from not being free or open source which I recall you found important) lispworks isn't free oh acl isn't free either? LW is nice as well but is slower than ACL and CMUCL for a lot. it has a nice gui though, but I like Emacs and the ACL<->Emacs interface it's not that i feel entitled to the source of these programs, but i really like to add/hack/inspect functionality ACL is free for non-commercial work on Linux (it is somewhat crippled by having a heap size of 30M) LW is even more crippled in tis free version ACL 5.0 Trial for Linux was not crippled though but it's license ends at 1.1.2000 s/tis/its/ hm, i'll pass for such licenses I hope sgi releases xfs for linux soon xfs is a journaling fs? journaling fs's seem to be `all the hype' lately 04:40am yeah, but if you have a big disk and your computer fails, ext2 takes ages that's why i have no more than 1gb harddisk space :) I have 45G :p i couldn't think of anything but mp3's to store on that then again i don't do very useful things with my pc have you tried ext3fs ? not yet they should stabilise before I put data on them and there was another one, i don't recall it's name reiserfs ah yes tried that? :) no that one seems to be somewhat `stable' umm.. -:- smokie_ [tw026024@zaalf20.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes hmm.. release day today.. lots of stuff to test.. :-/ what are you working on? -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) http://sds.yi.org/ 04:50am Software Development Foundation (SDS) yes i suggest installing an acronym checker (?) :) check the faq.. that question is answered there :) hum 'what is sds' describes everything but what sds actually is about.. The Software Development Foundation (SDS) is an open architecture designed for developing tools for software development. Based on XML, the SDS makes it easy for most languages and other systems to incorporate it's tools. (front page) 05:00am yes i guess i'm new too the concept. what i understand from it is that it generates from source code some data which can be used as input for various tools, which are part of sds also? it collects data from e.g source code, for larger projects to a common format which all tools can build upon instead of letting everyone who wants a development tool reinvent and do all the hard work interesting concept this will also make it easier for language designers who want source browsers, call-tree graphs, and documentation tools for their new language is it able to modify the source code itself also? currently it is one-way only.. so the idea is that the cool development tool which is developed once can be used for all languages won't it only work for ascii-text based languages? no as long as the information about the language constructs and the code can be put into xml/unicode it is available for all tools ah (we haven't writte a lot of documentation yet.. I should probably write an article) +n 05:10am 5.5M source augh eek. i wonder what it does a lot ;) 05:20am -:- SignOff smokie_: #TUNES (smokie_ has no reason) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf20.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes hi fare -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-253.s253.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes lo 06:00am Boycott DELL! DELL has patented its business methods do those patents hold in europe? (as if we weren't boycotting dell already ;) 06:10am Dunno. Patents are evil. Europe does evil things, but tends to try to do them against other people, not their own. DELL hasn't answered my email about buying a laptop with linux instead of windows so I am kindof boycotting thwem because they don't answer sometimes (too often), they manage to hurt themselves tho fare: they usually hurt other european countries there's no use in us boycotting dell btw :) * Fare/#Tunes is sick of leafnode -- will be back to inn+suck smokie: is there any use in anything? smokie: one laptop is $3000.. that's still money fare; oh of course :) fufie; it's peanuts for dell smokie: probably.. * Fare/#Tunes will probably buy a laptop in a year prices & features will vary a lot in the meantime meanwhile, I'm happy with my borrowed DELL Latitude CP -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us801.javanet.com] has joined #tunes as for our friends the chechens, it seems as if vollebaek, the OSCE chairman is doing negotiations between the russians and mashkadov hcf! Fare! Fufie: but he's willing to wait till there are no more tchetchens so as to take any measure we in France know much too much about bogus negociations (remember the peace between US and NVN in Paris 1972?) OSCE has no actual military power so he has to wait till both parties want/can negotiate Munich is also a classic case of fake negotiations 06:20am Yeah. Or all these american treaties with indians. where's the barf bag? use a mcdonalds paper bag won't tell the difference between barf and food om shoot first, negotiate never * AlonzoTG/#tunes is trying to grab hold of an idea that slithered through his mind as he was getting up about a new way to deliver kontent over the wet. negotiate is a good way to have the other one let his guard down (sp?), if he's stupid enough to believe you one of our bastard politicians' motto is "promises only engage those who believe in them" at least, he's honest about it hcf: that will only get you so and so far.. ever played the Diplomacy board game? Fufie: nope -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) the only way to win there is to cooperate, co-opt, backstab and grow strong.. you can't manage alone so negotiations are all -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) abi: no, PAIP is "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, Case Studies in Common Lisp" by Peter Norvig okay, hcf. 06:30am abi: paip is also at http://www.norvig.com/paip.html okay, hcf. Fufie: zero-sum games are a BAD example to show children. they are important to understand, but the fact is: society exists precisely because it's a positive-sum game. (exploiting nature to produce wealth) 06:40am fare: that might work in the west, but may not be as useful in developing countries.. after all, a large part of our wealth is generated by exploiting other countries yes and no. A large parge of the wealth of wealthy people is such. I'm not sure the average worker benefits that much from exploitation of other countries he certainly *does* benefit on the one side, but he also does suffer from the consequences of smaller competition and overall oppression, on the other side. 06:50am so the short-term consequences are likely to be beneficial, but the long-term consequences are dreadful the avg worker benefits as well as more wealthy people, either through the state's income or because of trickle-down of wealth we're all part of the system, luckily we are the ones who benefit at the moment Fare: could u leave something other than "foo" for ur cvs log messages? hcf: what if there's nothing worth mentionning in the update? (i.e. the "cvs diff" is essentially uncompressible) i dunno, tril seems to do log msgs well enuf 07:00am * Fufie/#tunes yawns.. much work to get a working relese out the door :-/ -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us801.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us801.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn125.delft.casema.net]) * Fufie/#tunes sighs.. making a decent build-system takes almost as much time as making the app 08:30am -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf20.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes Testing 1 2 3... >>> Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] requested PING 945279524 657787 from #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn158.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 09:40am -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.200] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (NARF!) * Fufie/#tunes sighs -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (smokie has no reason) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf20.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug abi: jself is self on java at http://www.ConsultAr.com/JSelf/ abi: openself is at http://www.linuxsupportline.com/~openself/ -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) 10:30am abi: tinyself is at http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/tiny.html 10:40am -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii1-2.tin.it] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii1-2.tin.it] has left #tunes [] abi: squeakos is aka Squeak In One Disk at http://members.xoom.com/squeakos/ 10:50am -:- mike [user6994@modem-22.name59.dialup.pol.co.uk] has joined #tunes -:- mike [user6994@modem-22.name59.dialup.pol.co.uk] has left #tunes [] yes.. finally done.. finally things are working fair enough for release * Fufie/#tunes smiles happily 12:10pm finally some rest.. 12:30pm -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes hi hi :) 01:00pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp15.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes two core sightings in a row eerie hey now :) well, its unusual man you have to admit it :) no, the eerie bit is: i'm home two days in a row :) you usually disappear mid conversation i mean, wow, two evenings at home. the same week. scary :-) and never show up until a month later :) *giggle* yeah, that's either when i get bored with a 2 seconds ping to the US or somesuch; or i get an NMI from my girlfriend ;) sorry, i'm french, therefore i'm rude (hi fare ;-) nah i think americans can be just as rude as frogs :) :) i was kidding.. there's the same percentage of rude people in every nation (about 90% ;) really, that low? oh, well, education helps these days :) more seriously i am extremely busy .. i even have one gray hair :-) 01:20pm why so busy? oh, nothing new :) jenny, suntech, and then friends who want to see me all the time :) (in decreasing order of importance to me ;) what exactly do you do at suntech? suntech's page is almost as vague as transmetas heheh it's going to be a little more informative RSN (the same kind of RSN, yes yes :) we're going to put a double page of recruitment in a large french computer magazine so it has to basically we develop clementine :-) I propose an amendment to the theory of relativity: self.brace(); :) The displacement between any time of origin and RSN is constant, regardless of how much time has passed formally stated.... RSN - time = k lol. that's not even funny, it's too accurate to be :) for all values of time it's "relativity applied to suits" yes it's heavy physics :) goes over my head most often the theory of management relativity! haha.. too true :) so... i propose that management's sense of time is curved! :) they can approach RSN but they never reach it i think there's a #define RSN (positive_infinity) somewhere in suit.c, i can't find it :) i'd hate to figure how RLN works out RLN? :) really long now... oh.. it's so far away you have to fold space in order to reach it ;) well, you have to fold space just to reach RSN if you only have a conventional ion engine, you'll reach it in 630 billion years, about the time Tunes reaches v2.0 ;) nah.. that one i can handle. :) though, RSN is independent of space it is merely a measurement of time so folding space would do no good 01:30pm well, that's a matter of speaking :) that's the only thing that imprinted my mind from the 'dune' books ;) even in the 0th dimensional space there are probably managers telling 0 dimensional creatures: "RSN" *shudder* probably :) that's ok, i figured the RSN constant. it happens 'this week' :) only they'd be in 0 dimensional letters since letters as we know them are 2 dimensional managers are 0 dimensional anyway :) ah, so they're dark matter in a sense :) artifacts from some other dimension or maybe they're anti matter which could explain their warped sense of time and why they never seem to do anything useful if you think about it, it makes sense hehe well, they do. just .. not appealing to us 4-dimensional people :) not only are they destructive on contact with manner they're destructing things they've already created as time progress (only they see it as creating things) s/manner/matter heheh :) 01:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[209.94.148.200]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.197] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- tmf [tmf@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes fufie? fufie is not quite sure myself yet :) abi: fufie =~ s/myself/himself/ OK, hcf 02:40pm abi: seen fufie fufie was last seen on IRC 2 hours, 13 minutes and 1 seconds ago, saying: finally some rest.. [Wed Dec 15 12:27:45 1999] yes? hi hi I just wanted to say that you have an old version of tml the old is used like 'tml infile outfile' while the new is 'tml' and then interactive do you want to update (y/n) ? have you got a newer tar-file or zip-file for me? an update would be nice yes :) nono, just the interpreter c source its more fun to use I like the concept of "fun to use" :) -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tmf[193.217.63.152]) haven't had time to test tml yet though.. it really means thomas' meta language.. right? :) 02:50pm -:- avanti [mibin@62.11.102.82] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from asimov.openprojects.net [03:03pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com asimov.openprojects.net -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn158.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp15.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.197] has joined #tunes -:- avanti [mibin@62.11.102.82] has joined #tunes -:- tmf [tmf@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes something happend ehh? "ehh?" ? last thing I said was: "haven't had time to test tml yet though.. it really means thomas' meta language.. right? :)" a netsplit The ! :D I am being spammed by netbiz.no :) Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 we needed the exposure :) kick ass! 03:10pm I would've complained.. loudly I'm a simple man with simple needs a company that equips it's workers with Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 can't care a lot.. ;) they probably won't me dead with Microsoft office 2000 lurking in the distance - I don't really care :) you know you're doomed? :) doomed??? I daydream about being doomed! :) fortunately i dont suffer by those bad nightmares you use linux? debian linux 03:20pm windows is better than linux in many ways such as ? such as window management be more explicit linux has no window management itself it is just a kernel told you bill is nice to third world contries what do you mean? local no monopoly is good for third world why it makes the distance between rich countries and poor ones bigger bill is just one rich guy. so? two guys three guys, one million guys - 3rd WC don't care I'm very dissapointed that I met so little opposition here stating that "windows is better than linux in many ways" heh, i simply dont care anymore to debate it's a boring dicusssion and windows is better than linux in many ways exactly (but none of the reasons I care about) use linux! 03:30pm Fufie is not using Windows, at leant right now least* I don't use windows at all is linux closer to tunes than windows? yes why because it is free hmm, i think both are still very far, however somebody should implement Genera for Intel-boxes Genera? somebody said Genera was the OS for the Symbolics LISP machines ahh cool lisp is simple to implement, right. Why not write a lisp-OS yourself? a slow and simple lisp is simple to implement ok writing ya lisp is not difficult, writing a good lisp is why does it have to be slow? one would usually hack an interpreter first, that is slow cause it wouldnt have an optimized garbage collection mechanism avanti: true and writing an optimising compiler which would be needed for an OS takes _time_ and skill but somebody has written that - in lisp - right? already yes, there have been several OSes written in Lisp yes, but then with special hardware for Lisp no, somebody has allready written efficient gc for intel boxes! id like to have a prepocessor for lisp to allow me to code without using all those '()', like in tcl avanti: dylan? avanti: no you don't! dylan? tmf: which gc is that? didnt know about that one avanti: see the language review page instead of '(' and ')' keys, you have a '()' key which place the cursor in the middle :) fufie: I just guessed that there were good lisp environments for pc abi: dylan is a lisp-inspired powerful oo-language made by some of the people who made CMU CL possible i haven't a clue, fufie 03:40pm tmf yea but `(' & `)` are harder to parse visually than a properly indented code tmf: there are, but the intel architecture is not ideal.. I'm not saying that " create a fantastic lisp computer" just "make a lisp os" Fufie: when entering question words like who, what, etc into abi, u have prefix them w/ a \ avanti, autoindent or what you say, pretty print hcf: have you got an example? tmf: takes a lot of time (which I don't have) and excellent skills (and in the Lisp world I am a real novice :) abi: fufi is the one \who desires an example fufie, so lisp isn't that simple to use and parse. From all the good things I've heard about lisp, this would be but a porting job tmf: it is really simple to use and parse :) but not _that_ simple :) tmf: lisp is really simple, it is just that i find it hard to read that is however different from making a new lisp compiler and writing a low-level os lisp lost the celestial mandate by going proprietary low-level? come on, man. It's supposed to be high level LISP OS! making a good compiler or os is really complex, with any language you choose.. lisp is already made, and portable tmf: the high level must be written as well for an OS lisp is a language family, or maybe you mean common lisp? I mean 'the lisp of your choice' fare: the irony is then that cmucl is still the best lisp around for many pruposes.. fufie: but if there is a lisp interpreter, then there must, somewhere be information regarding the translation of lisp to low level - so write the low level in lisp also Fufie: do you use lisp instead of sh for your shell? tmf: at some point you need to write the assembler :) tmf: "the lisp of your choice" doesn't exist yet Fufie: what about poplisp? A some point in TIME - in the past, it is allready done avanti: I have tried using scsh for a few hours.. ;) Fufie: CMUCL integrates an assembler fare: poplog? it is based on a devent vm for pop11 but I haven't really had a look at the internals abi: forget fufi hcf: I forgot fufi abi: dylan is DYnamic LANguage, an oo lisp dialect, see http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Dylan/ fare: cmucl is supposedly horrible for porting and extending.. 03:50pm fare: the poplog vm might (when I think of it) be interesting to lll Fufie: for the lll, I'll meet Ian Piumarta this friday fare, in what way does 'your ideal lisp' differ from its closest existing relative? fare: cool :) how about you, fufie, why doesn't your ideal lisp exist? how 'ideal', like in idealism or in the weberish sense? within the realm of reality but to answer properly (in case you don't know Weber) ( i don't ) - everything should be objects they are ( was, or so I've been told . anyway, just go on . sorry :) - all methods should be generic - all objects including methods) should be transparently MOPable