IRC log started Tue Nov 16 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1116 -:- Edo [user3243@cx625985-a.phnx1.az.home.com] has joined #tunes : ) : ( Hasta pronto. -:- Edo [user3243@cx625985-a.phnx1.az.home.com] has left #tunes [] 12:20am -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (bb) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes morning 02:50am -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Read error to Fufie[tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no]: EOF from client) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-134-67.s321.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-25.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes hi lo 10:50am fare: btw I realised that my PLOB problem was trivial after all as the code is generated by my (aop) weaver and it's easy to change things from PLOB to non-PLOB.. sometimes one can't really find the forest for all the trees ;) 11:20am still need a decent IR system though to make a decent search engine.. 11:30am IR ? IR? 12:50pm information retrieval oh I solve the actual storage problem but need a way to make the information searchable how did you solve the storage problem? making information searchable: you may want to contact poff@tunes.org by making a mixin-class which had tight binding with PLOB, and thereby the trees were easy to save and easy to retrieve by an alphanumeric index "tight binding with PLOB" ? 01:20pm used PLOB's metaclass for persistence what about "contamination" of objects with persistence requirements. Is it PLOB handling that? the contamination is reduced to that mixin class ie the actual classes are not affected and can remain standalone the mixin dynamically (and recursively) adds itself to the class of objects that need be persistent? the mixin is added during weaving, ie the code-generation which is just a switch and is easily changed (I think we talk past each other) uh? it's a bit difficult to explain I guess.. if you want a better explanation I can put it into a mail sure. Send it to tunes@tunes.org! 01:30pm isn't that the mailing list? exactly! tell I'm the one who suggested the post! traffic needed? but sure.. it might be of interest to others non-personal information is always better publicly shared than privately shared btw: during december me and a friend will probably finish a language tool which might be of interest to tunes and for people who make new languages great will make it really easy to make javadoc eq, call-browsers, class-browsers, etc for any new language dumping html? -:- ours [basile@Beaujon-22-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #tunes or using some Tk-like stuff? ours: bienvenue! Voici un message prive pour Fare Ok. the javadoc equiv generates html ok or latex or docbook or groff, or.. whatever 01:40pm -:- SignOff ours: #TUNES (Read error to ours[Beaujon-22-13.abo.wanadoo.fr]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Fare_ [fare@d090.paris-205.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare_ is now known as FareWell -:- FareWell [fare@d090.paris-205.cybercable.fr] has left #Tunes [] -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp80.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes gakuk! kukag abi: seen water water was last seen on IRC 15 days, 3 hours, 45 minutes and 0 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] where's he at? 03:10pm om * AlonzoTG/#tunes has DYOP board Help me set it up! =) DYOP? the MISC stuff? yep, its a 5 kilogate FPGA!!! =) It also has a FORTH interpriter on it. ATG: hum. What can we do about it? Well something productive rather than idle in this chan. =\ -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes * Fare/#Tunes farts 04:00pm Fare: well, know where water has kukag'd too? First I need to successfully hook it up and get it operational... then I need a software system to run it... there is 32k ram/32k rom... eihrul: no idea ATG: I guess the right help channel for that is the MISC mailing list I fear I'm mostly incompetent when it comes to real hardware. I know the theory, but I can't even solder my monitor's replacement VGA connector :( :( Soldering takes practice... you can get an iron for $12 at a local store... and some kits to practice on from any one of many companies on the net... I have the iron. I don't have the practice. or rather I have lame mispractice on easy stuff (electric wires), whereas a VGA connector requires a bit of precision * AlonzoTG/#tunes has done a serial port; A bit easier... Well just work on your precision... the trick is to get exactly the right ammount of solder on it. 04:10pm also, I wonder how I'll recover a shielding remotely as good as the one that was built into the original connector (well, that very good shielding didn't prefer a short circuit on the green line) =\ probably better to get one from a store. Al: the other end of the cable is embedded in the monitor :( Taking the cable out of the monitor wouldn't be as hard as tinkering with the connector... If you are carefull enough it should be doable... ATG: I fear the internal connectors will be at least as hard to change as the external ones -- and much more dangerous 04:20pm just make sure the capacitors are discharged... =\ how can I make sure? really shouldn't be that tough... lay a coin across them... ATG: if you come do it for me... they store 400 volts at peak... ouch 04:40pm I can't afford to kross the pond... I'll find someone else in Paris... -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp121.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes 04:50pm <_ruiner_> you here air? -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:00pm anyway know time efficiency of mark-sweep relative to a copy-collect algorithm? :) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has left #TUNES [] 05:10pm eihrul: see the Wilson review url? somewhere around www.cs.utexas.edu/oops/ or such (mark-sweep is nicer because of lower memory usage, but i'm wondering if its time competitive...) lower memory usage? not so. i thought copy-collection requires double the amount of memory in use... whereas mark-sweep does not.... conceptually, it's about various implementations of sets you put objects in sets: the live and dead sets well... i'm differentiating between treadmill and copy-collection :) and also the free and toscan sets i liked treadmill.... but i'm not sure how to extend it for objects of multiple sizes.... different purpose well, actually, that's simple... eihrul: you have to test it but rather for extremely variable sized objects i mean... (like strings or arrays) eihrul: the most famed collector is the OCaml collector combines two kinds of collectors copy-collector looks nice because it handles variable size objects nicely and is incremental, generational, and all any papers on it? eihrul: see around planar's home page url? :) abi: planar? planar is Damien Doligez, master hacker, and author of the OCaml GC, at http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/ master is not enough. I should have said demigod or such. hacker deity? :) he also won the last icfp contest... (didn't participate in the previous one) 05:20pm Fare: off-topic question... Fare: is a degree in computer science worth pursuing at all? (or would i be better off just continuing with books) eihrul: the degree is worth if you're interested in an academic position but even w/o degree, the cursus is interesting, as you get to meet brilliant academic people that said, if you're doing well with books, you can still try to meet brilliant people even w/o getting an academic degree <- torn between going for math/physics (and doing CS in space time) or going for CS/math degree (and doing physics in spare time) er spare time :) doing CS in space time, I like the concept! eihrul: what do you want to do, professionally? no real professional goals unfortunately... i don't necessarily want to sit in a cubicle programming all day :) (i mean that i don't want to be forced to program something dictated to me) if only degree programs in US weren't so one-tracked... -:- fire` [no@209-68-229-49.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes hates kollege. some professors are k00l... one-tracked? you know, any varsity degree is *forcibly* one-tracked Alonzo reminds me too much of my brother now, if you're super-competent, you can get several ones in several fields Fare: well the whole idea of a degree is bunk.... (you should be able to learn what you want) not just positioning yourself into a specific profession... * Fare/#Tunes thinks that every new born child should be granted a PhD in every known and unknown field. european schools are far nicer that way than those in the US from what i hear from my european relatives 05:30pm Fare: just wondering specifically if there are any things covered in CS degree programs that can't just be picked up through research paper/book readin'... there needs to be SOME discriminator; so the person operating on your heart doesn't have epilepsy... eihrul: contact with academic people; research spirit; etc. AlonzoTG: not everyone is operating on your heart... only those doing so need pay the penalty doesn't show much in lesser degrees. unless you do off-course activities maybe i'd be better off just flipping a coin :) stupid coin... depends on the alternative, too if going to college, which? if not, what to do? Fare: i don't have much choice in the matter... have to pick a college good choice also, physics is large; so is CS. Fare: how far are you from your masters? er Phd sorry maybe an academic degree might help you discover aspects of the studied field that you'd not discover or stress otherwise fire: not far what are you going to do when you're out of college? work at the university? Fare: i'm just afraid that if i go for CS undergraduate i'll end up sitting through 2 years of Java/C++/fundamental data structure classes... 05:40pm (tis a disgusting trend toward that here) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp076.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes my brother had that crap I flamed my community college about their CS track.... Too much asm programming and not enuff Lambda calculus. hah <_ruiner_> bah! i'm not too sure about polytechnic colleges though might be more flexible <_ruiner_> anybody here using windows? yes :( 05:50pm -:- mibin [mibin@62.10.6.150] has joined #tunes !seen water abi, seen water? water was last seen on IRC 15 days, 6 hours, 38 minutes and 10 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) 06:00pm heh now abi is a little more knowledgable about human biology sucrose? sucrose is, like, fructose + glucose or c12h22o11 fructose? i heard fructose was c6h12o6 :D:D:D heh abi, octane? mibin: wish i knew damn abi, quercetin? i don't know, mibin ah abi: methane is ch4 is that right? hmm yup abi: methol is ch3oh fat? hmmm... fat is three fatty acids + glycerol cool abi: glycerol? bugger all, i dunno, mibin :( neither do i abi will only know if i know and i don't know fire`: it seems you like biology nah no? im taking a biology class right now though 06:10pm and we just did a lab on biochemistry im a coder i studied some biology too but i forgot most of it * AlonzoTG/#tunes wishes all skules had open admission. /me hates skools AlonzoTG: canada... fire`: biology is icky... all rote-memorization wut doth kanada haf to do wid it? college is cheap so is sociology CHEAP?!?!?!??! in canada, supposedly... not in US biology is ok $1500/kredit ???? =P i can't wait til chemistry fire`: chemistry gets just like biology... they partition everything into more fragmented and isolated ideas they don't really try to unify much of anything... oh? (and later becomes just a bunch of memorization) physics is much nicer well then i can't wait til compilers :D (841)-<-< grrr (84D1)-<-< heh, what is that supposed to be? if your using ircii then oh well anathomy? no not ircii xchat here CHemestry was intentionally obfuscated to thwart the physicists. =P 06:20pm obfuscated? in what ways? notice that charges are listed as "2-" instead of "-2" that was to confuse the physicists... -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp320.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes i think the fact that chemistry does not try to unify its principles that much is the uglier demon here :) also do you believe they keep words like "entropy" and "enthalpy" for their clarity and usefullness? chemistry is kind of a mushroom science AlonzoTG: plus physics has words like charmed, strange, color, and flavour... much cooler IMHO :) well thats because there simply isn't a better word... I easily remeber what charm, strange, and color referr to. <_ruiner_> the refer to me, of course But how Am I supposed to remeber entropy and enthalpy? AlonzoTG: latinish stuff really needs to be ditched :) <_ruiner_> no way! tropy = that grows entropy ever grows mibin: they just could have called them shrooms... and noone would have needed a translation om no wonder I got a D in chemestry... D? what is that? mibin: what country? italy heh ah... US grades on scale of (A,B,C,D,F) ahh weird A corresponds to >= 90%, F < 50% <_ruiner_> not entirely true eihrul I phlunked phyzicks bekauze I couldn't take the phucking evil vektor mechanicks... gimme WAVE mechanics!!! <_ruiner_> some schools are going with outcome based learning _ruiner_: well, commonly <_ruiner_> pass or fail that's good yah... some cool but in most lower schools that's how it goes :P <_ruiner_> I wanna browse the net! I wanna check /.! Alonzo you need to start at the basics like arithmetic ;) how about spelling? :) hmmm... 1+1 = 11 =\ no 1+1 = 10 ? yes... * AlonzoTG/#tunes has unairy down pat, Can almost do binary, but has trouble going beyond that... <_ruiner_> 1 base ten + 1 base ten does in fact equal 10 base two <_ruiner_> you gotta put in the subscript when you do that.... 1 base (anything >= 2) * 2 == 10 base two Too many theoretical computer science books... 06:30pm Hint: the theoretical computer science books are keept with the math texts at the library! just discovered that today!!! AlonzoTG: yes... its lame... geepers; those libaries aren't as lame as they first seemed! and they mix the theoretical computer science books with "Windows for Dummies" its annoying heh what is windows? windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit company that can't stand 1bit of competition Calculus; Art of Programming Volume 1; Windows for Dummies.... AlonzoTG: just doesn't make sense... "Choose the element that does not belong in the listed set." eye knowe. Book idea: "The art of word processing" The book would develop a fully functional word processor using LISP. =P why not?... easiest way to learn a language is to apply it.... plus its not like we have that many lisp processors :) er word processors 06:40pm -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff fire`: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kba61.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes foo. bar 07:10pm baz bar foo (need symmetry) eihrul =) quux LispMud now has support for players and rudimentary serial tasks =) what did i tell you about serial tasking? :P Unfortunately, due to the flaws I noted earlier in cmucl, parallel tasks may not happen. serial tasking? yoo: flaws in cmucl? Fare: Yeah. Fare: Multiprocess stuff. Cmucl is not internally thread-safe, therefore Lisp processes can't be randomly interrupted safely. suckey eihrul: On the plus side, it does work. eihrul: And the tasking does support cooperative multitaskin. cooperative schmooperative preemptive or bust yoo: I thought the latest cmucl *did* have multithreading, at least on PCs 07:20pm Fare: Sort of =) Fare: It supports multithreading, per se, but not all of the code is thread-safe. yoo: "not all the code" includes standard LISP functions? Fare: I'm actually not sure -- to be honest, I've run the MUD with full preemptive tasking enabled before (Its a change of about 2 lines of code) and it worked quite well, but I'm not ready to say it works. if not, you should file a bug to the cmucl team Fare: Well, the documentation specifically says that they know its not entirely thread-safe. Wow. Amazon.com *rocks* 07:30pm nah.... yoo: cora is nicer... Cora? rumour has it Cora is at http://www.cora.justresearch.com/ Thanks abi. Feh! Cora is a Computer Science Research Paper Search Engine Cora? Cora is at http://www.cora.justresearch.com/ * yoo/#Tunes kicks ABi yoo: yes... that's why its better... Well research papers are newer than mosts books :) better bleeding edge stuff I found some hard-to-find things on Amazon for a lot less money than Iwould have had to pay locally. Non-computer-related stuff. amazon.com is usually more expensive than others... (on slashdot some anonymous coward posted quotes of various online bookstores) amazon .com consistently came up more expensive wierd but the AC has long since disappeared :) Yes. It could have been bogus. it wasn't... Amazon is more expensive for a few things but they have a GREAT collection. 07:40pm the person quoted prices for book reviews :) yoo: how can you buy books from a company that patented one click shopping? Hey, if they have what I want... but they patented one click shopping! :P hmm bn doesn't have the exact one i want but they have a different companies version of the same thing for the same price but it will take 2 weeks for them to ship as well. * yoo/#Tunes mumbles Wow. * yoo/#Tunes wants the damn orig one! hmm... 32k heap per thread kind of defeats the 'light weight' processes theme wow that is a lot of heap =P 32 whole k! hey, its not my research paper :P (yes, that's sarcasm ;) 32k per thread is nasty :P (might as well have a process at that point) hmm depends on the OS though 07:50pm 32k may not be nasty if you need it Think capabilities. think security-passing style -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) think lambda-calculus Feh. lambda-calculus? W7 Fare, is there anything that does not involve lambda-calculus? baking chocolate cakes and eating them ;) * Fare/#Tunes prefers eating them But baking is not too hard. no, but it consumes time Especially if your in America. The only part you have to do is put water in it, and put it in =) and you need fetch ingredients, too * Fare/#Tunes doesn't call *that* cake There is any other kind? * Fare/#Tunes hits yoo with a french cuisine book ;) Actually my sister is a wonderful cook. 08:00pm But...think McDonalds. How many McDonalds are there in France? McDonalds is cuisine. Oh, nice greasy Big Mac.