IRC log started Fri Aug 20 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0820
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<smoke> hi
<abi> hi, smoke
<hcf> hoy
<hcf> sup?
<smoke> nothing much.. i was just interested in new tunes projects :)
<smoke> are there any nice new ones?
<hcf> not afaik
05:50am
<fare> new?
<abi> new is failing at ftp://ftp.gte.com/pub/m3/notes/When-NEW-fails.txt
07:10am
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<Tril> yeah there is a new tunes project :)
<Tril> I start writing some C code again
<hcf> Tril: for what?
08:40am
<Tril> ...
<Tril> what do you think
<hcf> hows the pgsql and/or zope stuff coming?
<Tril> stopped
<hcf> ended or paused?
<Tril> it's easier to just make tunes
<Tril> the review needs tunes
<Tril> but ask beholder he might work on it
<hcf> how long will we have to wait?
<Tril> haven't heard anything from him since he said he was reading some docs about zope
<Tril> when is tunes gona be out you asked?
<hcf> a usable (for rev etc) prototype at least
<Tril> i dunno want to debug my code? i didnt try compiling it yet :)
<Tril> I need to write a main() funtion
08:50am
<hcf> will ur code replace any need for pgsql etc?
<Tril> not yet this is another prototype :)
<Tril> tunes when it is finished will replace any need for a separate database package, yes
<hcf> yes, when finished, if finished
<hcf> tell me again why u chose pgsql over mysql?
<Tril> is free
<Tril> and has more data types
<hcf> mysql is only semi free right?
<smoke> hcf: it can only be used for non-commercial purposes
<Tril> yeah, if you modify it you must make the package named something else
<Tril> ok i'll look at its license again...
<hcf> u dont have to
<hcf> i didnt suggest it
<hcf> brb
<Tril> it's short 168 lines
09:00am
<Tril> no commercial entity may sell it, you must distribute derived works under the same license, prominent notice of any modifications, must distribute source with modifications.
<hcf> and this conflicts too much w/ tunes?
<Tril> no. I just wated to try postgresql , and I like it
<Tril> if someone puts review in a db, (like that will ever happen) they can choose mysql if they want
<hcf> but it wont happen w/ pgsql either
<Tril> ok, it's true that only a little more work and people would be able ot enter junk into the db I designed
<Tril> so do you want me to do that?
<hcf> imo
<hcf> the tunes site and its underlying facilities...
<hcf> should be at a scale to handle our current and future needs
<Tril> scale?
<hcf> and be so as soon as possible
<hcf> we're overloaded w/ illmanaged information
<Tril> honestly i don't think Zope, PostgreSQL or any other existing solution CAN handle our current and future needs.
<hcf> the current scale doesnt do anything to assist us
<hcf> perhaps i should do, s/handle/assist better/
<hcf> s/better/better with/
<Tril> what do you see as our needs
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world)
<hcf> information we gather and create overflows our means of managing it
09:10am
<hcf> our ppl r only happenstancely synergistic
<hcf> i cant think of how else to say my thoughts
<Tril> no that sounds ok
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<Outlander> um
<Outlander> whats tunes all about? whats a reflective computing system?
<hcf> Outlander: read the site (www.tunes.org)
<Tril> hcf be a chap and repeat what you just said (2 lines) for outlander
<Outlander> heh
<hcf> information we gather and create overflows our means of managing it
<hcf> our ppl r only happenstancely synergistic
<Tril> but that observation of our group is the same observation we made of tthe entire world, and is the reason we are in this project
<Tril> we agreed that the tunes system is the only way to solve the problem
<Tril> or that is the definition
<hcf> Tril: cant we put /something/ in place that at least somewhat closer to what we need?
<Tril> we could, but that would be a lot of work, and it would be repeatedly frustrating because we would come to limits that we know tunes could solve
<Tril> and it would not solve the problem
-:- SignOff Outlander: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Outlander[bazza.ion.com.au])
<Tril> what it WOULD do is slow down tunes
<hcf> our current "solution" slows down tunes worsely
<hcf> perhaps its meant to inspire more than something less frustrating
09:20am
<Tril> huh?
<Tril> correct grammar would clarify
<hcf> which line?
<Tril> the last one
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<Outlander> ok i have some idea now...
<Tril> Outlander: did you read the FAQ?
<hcf> that which does not kill us, makes us stronger
<hcf> the closer something comes to killing us, the stronger we become because of it
<Outlander> yep
<Tril> i don't see how that applies
<hcf> Outlander: any questions not answered in the faq? we may add what u ask to the faq
<Outlander> because we adapt to that attack? and therefore become stronger in preparations to the event that it happens again..?
<hcf> Tril: here goes...
<Tril> no I don't see how it relates to what hcf was seaying earlier
<hcf> the current solution is frustrating at level 10
<Outlander> hehe
<hcf> a closer yet still not tunes solution could be frustrating at level 5
<hcf> but level 10 inspires the creation of level 0 more than level 5
<Tril> maybe it's frustrating to you, but it's not frustrating to me
<Tril> What are you trying to do?
<hcf> Tril: ur fine w/ it? why'd u bother looking into pgsql?
<Tril> I dont even know what current solution you are talking about.  Maybe you mean the new reviews and URLS we keep getting, that I just forward to review@tunes.org and leave them to be archived, and some day later someone will go back through the archive and put them on the review page?
<hcf> has anyone gone back and done anything yet?!
<Tril> all we need is a volunteer to take links and stick them in CVS.
09:30am
<Tril> maybe core would already have done that, but we just didnt communicate it well
<hcf> theres no system for the management of tasks
<hcf> its pure happenstance
<Tril> yes there is... it's called the subprojects 
<hcf> massively out dated
<Tril> read the charter
<Tril> yes the subprojects page itself needs a maintainer
<Tril> how about you?  :)
<Outlander> this is just a thought, but would a TUNES computer system resemble the structure of the human brain, or what we understand of it
<Outlander> would it be similar, could u draw many comparisions, etc
<Tril> maybe, the structure of tunes, will resemble the brain of whoever worked on it :)
<Outlander> interesting
<Outlander> the ultimate customisation? an extension of your own brain :)
<Tril> hcf: it's a simple yes/no question
<hcf> Tril: no
<Tril> darn :)
<Outlander> hehe
09:40am
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<Outlander> so what do u 2 do for a living?
<Tril> not financially independent. but I have a PT job UNIX admin at an ISP :)
<hcf> Tril: if we had the coordinated will to make the site overly better it would be, but the current evidence shows that we dont 
<Tril> just sent an e-mail to tunes@tunes about an open volunteer position in TUNES
<hcf> fare already did that
<Tril> he did?
<hcf> that jobs msg
<Outlander> have u heard of purely functional programmin languages?
<Tril> it must not have been exactly what I wrote, otherwise I would have remembered it
<Tril> Outlander: yup
<hcf> Tril: there may be some will, but theres little action
<Outlander> im currently doing a degree in Info Tech at uni...where we use Haskell
<hcf> especialled well coordinated action
<hcf> s/lled/lly/
<smkl> Outlander: do you like it?
<Tril> hcf: I see that article from Jul 15 and nobody replied to it yet
<Tril> "Job Opportunities"
<Tril> I think it would get better response if the jobs weren't full time :)
<hcf> Tril: r u seeing my point yet at all?
<Tril> if we posted a lot more, smaller, easier jobs, people would surely volunteer
<hcf> but jobs still need management...
<Tril> Fare just summed up the entire tunes project in 5 positions, but that is not realistic
<Outlander> it seems very interesting compared to imperative languages...u have to unlearn the way you've learned to program all along :)
<hcf> thats not happenstance
<Outlander> and being able to do a quicksort in 3 lines of code is impressive
<Tril> what are those 3 lines of code
<Outlander> hehe
<Outlander> brb :)
<Outlander> (as u can see, i really need to do more study on my haskell stuff)
<Tril> I forget the qsort algorithm so I wanna see them :)
09:50am
<Tril> hcf: Beholder was supposed to be responsible for overall coordination. 
<Tril> i guess he hasn't performed ?
<Tril> the problem is nobody wants to be responsible for tunes because they will be flamed by fare
<Outlander> hmm...well this example is 4 lines of code:
<Tril> even if they do a good job.
<hcf> so fare must be fixed if we want member responsibility
<Outlander> qsort []    = []
<Outlander> qsort (e:xs)   = [x | x <- xs, x < e]
<Outlander> ++ [e] ++
<Outlander> qsort [x | x <- xs, x >= e]
<Outlander> the spacing didnt come out right with this irc client...
<Tril> : is list deconstruction and | is list construction?
<Outlander> | is a guard
<Outlander> and lists are []
<Tril> oh well, i didnt understand it :)
<Outlander> hehe
<Outlander> ive still gotta read up on it too :)
<Outlander> but check out www.haskell.org if u want more info
<Outlander> but it allows u to do higher order functions, etc
<Tril> hcf, ok, so I take over, kick fare out, and then do whatever you tell me, right?
<hcf> Tril: when/where/how did i suggest that?
<Tril> I just suggested it. would it work?
<hcf> fare cant be kicked, he must choose to step down and pass the buck
<Tril> ok assuming that happens
<hcf> ur not any more of a "leader" than fare, r u?
<Tril> not at the moment
10:00am
<Tril> leaders should be servants, though. they receive all the ideas from other people and facilitate progress
<Tril> where progress is defined as what ideas everytone has about what they want to happen
-:- SignOff Outlander: #TUNES (bye)
<hcf> i see no one person as capable of being the single leader
<Tril> a team then?
<Tril> the "Movement Strike Force"
<hcf> team w/ checks and balances
<Tril> tunes is this monster elephant that weighs 80 tons and it needs special work to get it to move
<Tril> i propose just using a public mailing list, that is enough check and balance
<Tril> respond faster, I want to leave soon
<Tril> if you dont talk i am going to assume these ideas are no good and i wont do anything about them
10:10am
<fare> Tril!
<Tril> hi fare
* Tril/#TUNES slaps hcf about a bit with a large trout
<Tril> fare: read log for last few pages
<Tril> since I joined I guess
<fare> Tril: we should try to recruit someone on comp.lang.lisp or comp.lang.scheme to develop our LISP...
<Tril> i dont want a lisp
<fare> well, it's to serve as a core anguage for further extensibility
<Tril> well, lisp with built-in persistence and modularity, you mean?
<fare> sure
<fare> built-in, a built from built-in reflection
<fare> s/a /or /
<Tril> hcf left in the middle of a conversation :(
<fare> oh
<hcf> Tril: just idle for a bit, sorry
<Tril> i guess i'm not leaving right away
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<Tril> ...
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] requested PING 935169422 673803 from #TUNES
<hcf> we've had a public mlist
<Tril> thats not what i said
<Tril> we were talking about a strike force to jointly coordinate the entire tunes project
<Tril> that would be accountable because their discussion would not be in private
<hcf> oh
<sr> does anyone here know how to detect/get rid of BO2k?
<sr> K
10:20am
<fare> grr
<Tril> sr: Delete Winxxx and install Linux
<fare> lag
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<hcf> Tril: accountable? like fare is, noone challenges (except water)
<fare> hey, just do like Jim Little, and create your own project
<fare> see the Charter
<Tril> fare:I'm trying to listen to hcf's suggestions. 
<fare> Tril: look back up to what?
<fare> discussions on irc are not private
<Tril> fare: to where it says "Tril is back from the dead"
<hcf> fare: thanks for the negation
<fare> Tril: a friend of mine sent me his two last reflective OSes.
<fare> in french, unhappily
<Tril> how do you wriet an OS in French? does that mean it is not implemented?
<fare> ("unhappily"? well, I'm happy french is used; it's a nice language)
<fare> no, it's in C and stuff, but comments, etc, are in french
<Tril> if it was using French text, just translate it. Debug msgs should be internationalized
<Tril> fare: hcf was just talking about getting some movement in TUNES, but it sounds like you are opposed to it
<fare> actually, only comments are in french; variables are named in english
<hcf> Tril: opposed to dealing w/ it
<fare> I'm not opposed to movement in Tunes
<Tril> hcf: anyweay, continue our conversation..
<hcf> Tril: saying 'feel free to do blah blah' is /so/ much easier
<fare> hcf: feel free to make that comment!
<fare> ;->
* fare/#Tunes hides
<hcf> fare: feel free to keep passing my comments back to me w/o much thought on them
<Tril> fare: feel free to be an ass
* fare/#Tunes is an ass
* fare/#Tunes is more than that: two asses
<Tril> now, I just wrote email in response to July 15 "Job Opportunities" by Fare
<Tril> the first such known reply
<fare> yup
<hcf> msgs from the leader or leadership should demand response
<fare> <hcf> our ppl r only happenstancely synergistic
10:30am
<Tril> you are the two slowest IRC chatters I have ever seen
<fare> slow?
<fare> I'm very fast!
<fare> (but very lagged)
<Tril> you have any response to what you just quoted from hcf?
<fare> (mind-lagged)
<fare> unhappily not
<fare> we lack a core on which to build
<fare> we've lacked it since day one
<Tril> i think hcf believes there is a way to have a working team that isn't based around code
<hcf> Tril: i wont be as slow now since i gave up on what i was trying to do so i could continue the discussion
<fare> although we have clearer ideas than in day one
<Tril> there will always be part of tunes that is not based around code, but around people interactions
<fare> certainly
<hcf> happenstantional interactions
<Tril> for example we have a web page.  the linux kernel does not even have its own, one web page
<fare> but as far as actual code goes (which is allegedly a big part of the project), we need code, and code-writing only structures around code
<fare> Tril: the linux kernel is none the less
<Tril> i think hcf was complaining about stuff other than code that is not getting done
<fare> oh
<Tril> fare: linux is totally centered around a kernel. We can't be centered around just code, not just because there is none yet, but because we have a bunch of links to other systems and a bunch of ideas that exist independently of code.
<hcf> Tril: why must u always refer to me as complaining?
<fare> Tri: sure.
<fare> I'm not worried about the non-code part of Tunes.
<fare> Should I be?
<Tril> hcf: because you always bug me about stuff and you always refuse to do anything or be an active member. like you want everyone else to do something
<hcf> giving suggestions IS being active
* fare/#Tunes is not casting the first stone
<Tril> fare: I  haven't been either, but there is no reason not to do something about it, since it is parallel to code and different people could take part in it
<fare> sure
<Tril> hcf: ok, now that you are responding, I don't accuse you
<hcf> suggesting become complaining when a system isnt in place to process suggestions w/o non annoyance
<hcf> s/non//
<Tril> everything that is not code, I shall call "ideas."
10:40am
<hcf> Tril: task/ppl management isnt ideas
<Tril> ideas about what to do
<Tril> everything is ideas
<hcf> my what a nice all purpose hammer uv concieved of
<fare> Tril: you'll have to distinguish intentions and extensions
<Tril> first are ideas about what to do, these need to be generated, collected, then processed. Fully processed ideas can be implemented
<fare> I think hcf insists on intentions
<fare> hcf: I'm willing to pass the buck. Who's willing to receive it?
<fare> actually, I took the buck after other honchos of MOOSE/PIOS/whatever went away
<fare> but that's past.
<hcf> fare: ppl should be conditioned to all want to recieve it
<fare> Let's look forward
<hcf> or something like that
<Tril> you want to give me a buck? do I need to return interest on it?
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<hcf> actually, the path of buck reception should be clearly shown by the task delegation mechanism
<fare> core!
<core> huwo
<core> salut fare :)
<Tril> perhaps this usage of buck is not related to money at all? anyone know?
<core> hi hcf, tril :)
<Tril> yo
<hcf> Tril: s/buck/job|task/
<Tril> we are just talking about who is managing the tunes project
<fare> core: ca t'interesse les sources (en GPL) de quelques OS reflexifs (en francais) de mon ami Henri Lesourd?
<Tril> hcf: I know what its usage is, I'm asking about its derivation
<core> tril: i went through the logs.. i don't mind helping with improving the review if there is something i can help with that doesn't take huge gobs of time
<Tril> core: it doesn't.
<hcf> Tril: doesnt matter atm
<core> fare: oui, avec joie :)
<Tril> hcf: OFF TOPIC! Sorry! nevermind
<core> tril: doesn't what, take much time, or there is nothing i can do? :)
<Tril> core: in the last few months a lot of links have been posted to the review list, even some reviews. They need sorted and added into CVS
<core> tril: i've been trying to think up a database for the review material for the past hour, but the current one is too verbose to fit in one. we'd need to make big changes in the way it's done
<fare> Hum.
<Tril> core: do you know relational DB's?  Can you take a look at my design?
<core> tril: true.. i'm not in the best position to comment on languages and such,t hough
* fare/#Tunes needs rule to put big mail files in a separate folder, with warning mail being sent to main folder...
<core> tril: yeah, i know rdbmses.. i tried to design a db for the past hour but it won't just fit in like that
<core> tril: and i wouldn't mind looking at yours no :)
<Tril> brb
<core> i'm trying my best to keep the OS review up to date but it's on the edge of unmanageability
<Tril> core: do you know PostgreSQL?
<abi> rumour has it PostgreSQL is a Object-Relational DBMS derived from the Berkeley Postgres system. at http://www.postgresql.org or postgresql.nextpath.com or see also http://www.linuxhq.com/HOWTO/PostgreSQL-HOWTO.html
<fare> core: hum. I'll be sending a few things down the OS review page...
<core> fare: great! :)
<core> tril: a little; i mostly played with msql and mysql but it can't be that different
<hcf> abi: part #tunes
<abi> goodbye, hcf.
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<core> hcf: there's no "shut up" mode in abi? i think the latest infobot does that :)
<hcf> core: abi isnt the lastest
<core> hcf: oh ok. just checking you knew that :)
<Tril> core: ok I sent you an email about accessing my database. 
<core> tril: neat :)
<Tril> it wont work until I start the postmaster daemon give me a minite
<core> tril: are you setting up a generic database for all review material?
10:50am
<core> tril: sure, take your time :)
<core> la la la.
<Tril> ok it's working
<core> tril: great :)
<fare> core: you're no more on the members page. What's your homepage url, already?
<core> fare: http://www.core.netnation.org, but it's grossly outdated and inaccurate. better than nothing though i guess
* Tril/#TUNES will remember now: "./postmaster &" ....
<core> my girlfriend is quite unhappy of that site, i haven't updated it in ~ 18 months therefore all of my ex's are on it, and she isn't :P
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Write error to AlonzoTG[209-122-254-245.s245.tnt1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com], closing link)
<Tril> core: the design is like this, there are tables for OSes, Languages, and VMs.  Each table has columns for name, a link to a URL and a set of text "reviews".  A review has an author and some text...
<core> tril: i was thinking of making name/url pairs a resource table
<Tril> well, I did that, if you mean name as in the anchor text for the URL
<core> tril: oh, i mean, putting the name, url, last status of check (for links), last successful date of check (for links), etc. in a table
<core> tril: and some kind of id that allows you to select all mirrors of the same resource for example
<hcf> Tril: maintainers need a better system to maintain, further maintaining of the current system would be nearly pointless
<hcf> Tril: jobs (smaller or not) rnt very effective w/o better job management
<Tril> yeah I think I did a last-checked date in it too. All links are there, and any Lang/OS/VM can refer to any numbe of them, so they are not tied to anything
<core> tril: i assume you have categories, etc.
<Tril> Nope
<core> tril: not even a type? kernel, os, virtual machine, language, compiler..?
<core> tril: what about a "main driving idea" field.. so you can select all OSes that implement a global address space for instance.
11:00am
<core> tril: i know we should focus on duplicating the current material into a database, but that's just ideas i had, to make it better. :)
<Tril> categories can be added later easily, i think
<core> tril: did you add a license field? (that points to a resource, like www.gnu.org/gpl or somesuch)
<core> tril: well, without categories, it's kind of impossible to sort it into nice pages..?
<fare> core: see bespin:~fare/lesourd-Divulg.zip
<core> fare: ok :)
<hcf> Tril: u see my 2 comments?
<Tril> core: licenses would vary with different implementations, and even versions of the same implementation
<Tril> hcf i will hold on
<core> tril: well, the license of the current one at least?
<core> tril: imho it wouldn't be practical to read a page where all projects are together without any kind of sorting
<core> tril: or to put it differently, have you settled on a DB design already and aren't willing to change it? :-)
<Tril> core: the way I have it set up the tables mostly have 2 columns, for binary relations
<core> tril: ah
<Tril> so adding more fields is just done by adding more tables.
<core> i see
<Tril>  hcf: meta-jobs
<core> fare: chmod 644 lesourd-Divulg.zip :)
<fare> core: wait
<fare> core: done
<core> fare: thanks
<Tril> fare: is that one of the reflective OSes?
<core> tril: yup
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<Tril> or both?
<fare> both
<fare> you may have a look, too
<core> fare: thanks, i'll have a look at it. i like to sift through code :) how functional is it? 
<hcf> Tril: meta-jobs being taken before and non-meta-jobs, agree?
<Tril> before and?
<hcf> s/and/any/
<Tril> s/and/the/?
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<fare> core: what meaning of "functional"?
<Tril> full house
<Tril> water :)
<fare> bingo!
<water> cool. trila _and_ fare
<Tril> and core
<fare> and hcf
<core> fare: is it self-hosted, or does it run on top of something else? how far does it extend at the moment?
<core> water :)
<water> hey core, tril, fare
<Tril> ATG and smkl lurketh, I think the chaosdev ppl are away
<water> chaosdev ppl: as always
11:10am
-:- Tril has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || Discussing coordination of the TUNES project
<Tril> brb
<core> whoa!
<core> the guy wrote a self-hosted OS _and_ a compiler?
<water> who did that?
<fare> one boots on top of DOS, the other on top of Linux
<core> water: someone called henri lesourd, Fare sent me some work of his (with comments in french, unfortunately)
<AlonzoTG> om
<core> fare: i'm looking at BOS, i assume that's the dos-starting (ie. self hosted :-) one.
* water/#tunes chk's the logs
<fare> yup
<core> fare: that's most impressive.
<Tril> fare:what's the license?
<core> 1991 ?!
<core> tril: gpl
<Tril> is this the guy you convinced to go GPL?
<fare> Tril: yup
<fare> you have a good memory
<core> ca calme grave.
<fare> keski calme?
<core> son travail :)
<fare> oh :)
<core> fare: ask him how he managed to switch to 127-hour days.
<core> :)
<fare> if you see the result on his health, you won't want to do like him anymore!
<core> fare: hahaha.. i'm sure. looks like he last slept in 1985 ?
<core> his comments are quite nonacademic if you will :)
<Tril> all right so what are we gonna do about coordination of tunes? choose a new leader? or put together a group instead?
<core> tril: more importantly, what are those people supposed to do?
<core> (oops, i let my preference slip :-)
* water/#tunes isn't up to date on this argument
<fare> core: I just updated OSes.phtml
<core> fare: great, what did you add ?
<hcf> water: read the log faster, and read the last 2 mlist msgs
<Tril> core: whatever the consensus is- their job is to receive input from everyone else and make it happen.
<Tril> last 2?
<core> tril: #define make_it_happen :)
<Tril> oh I wrote both of them
<Tril> core: depends on what it is..by any means necessary
* core/#tunes waits on bespin's cvs update
<core> tril: what will they do about the fact that everyone has their own definition of tunes, their own piece of a project, and their own goals and agenda? :)
<Tril> core: CVS update sends the entire local file to the server for comparison. Get CvsUp or use rsync on the repository instea :)
<core> tril: no, i meant, the rescan that brings the cvs changes visible on http :)
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: choice: stay w/ current mess, pick new leader, or form leadership group
<water> tril: i've been compiling a list of researchers (that interest _me_, anyway). i intend to present them a case for co-authorship of a paper
<core> tril: i know cvs update does, i'm only on ISDN at home and i can watch the TX light go bonkers
11:20am
<Tril> those difficulties are solved by Meta-management
<Tril> which http?
<core> tril: bespin's :)
<core> tril: fare mentioned he did an update to the OS review, so i assumed he forced an update as well
<water> tril: they are from various research disciplines and i specifically chose them based on relevancy to a particualr paper of mine
<core> (in addition to the daily one)
<Tril> what url?  cvsweb reads the repo directly, i thought
<Tril> water: cool
<Tril> water: we are also interested in researchers relevant to Fare's papers and tunes ideas in general...
<core> tril: cvsweb yes, but static pages generated daily like the OS review, don't
<Tril> oh those.. you want me to make it automatic dont you
<water> tril: ok, but i wouldn't be good to pick those (for Fare, that is)
<core> wow, did i hint that much? ;)
<Tril> does CVS allow someone to checkout while someone else is checking in?
<Tril> or, more importantly, does it allow 2 checkouts to write the same directory simultaneously?
<core> tril: probably one is delayed until completion of the other
<Tril> i'll have to go test it
<core> else just update every 6 hours or somesuch :)
<core> ack, i have to go. see you in a while :)
-:- SignOff core: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations)
<Tril> hcf: i was waiting for you to reply
<Tril>  err no i wasnt
<Tril> the topic failed, let's go to meta-topic
<Tril> how do we decide from the 3 choices
<hcf> who chooses?
<Tril> hcf: what do you think
<Tril> which one 
<Tril> the grup is better, right?
<hcf> yeah
<hcf> but i mean
<Tril> Fare?
<hcf> if we let this be up for decision, we should ...
<hcf> do a voting via the mlist i guess 
<Tril> does that mean you'll post? :)
<hcf> unless u wanna skip the opinions of the whole project
<hcf> i wouldnt mind skipping
<Tril> we can find out the opinions of the people present in IRC, then ask on mlist for anyone else
<hcf> given that i'm here ;)
<Tril> or, the people NOT PRESENT IN IRC
<Tril> that are logged in but not actually reading this...because they are looking at logs, or this cool new OS that came out in French...
<hcf> we need a time limit on opinion giving
11:30am
<hcf> (voting at least)
<Tril> the consensus so far is that we need a leadership grup :) (between you and me)
<hcf> if were had a group already, we wouldnt need to ask the others
<Tril> don't try to cause a paradox, that's unproductive!
<hcf> heh
<water> aside: what's this Fare was speaking about concerning the "code" and "non-code" parts of tunes?
<water> you can't cause a paradox, only point oout a flaw in reasoning paradigm
<Tril> water: Code is the management way of Linux kernel.. the code that works, gets put in. There is not much more coordination than that
<Tril> water: Non-code is stuff like the Review (lots of links) and the other pages (ideas).  But also we mean everyone's general idea of what direction the project ought to be going. So far they aren't even saying.
<hcf> Tril: so can we skip almost everyone's vote/opinion?
<water> tril: so this is about tunes _right now_
<Tril> water: currently hcf and I think tunes should have a group of leaders who listen to input and implement it
<Tril> water: we are waiting for anyone else in the channel to chip in (see /topic)
<Tril> right now... or people's impressions of tunes right now...
<water> "a group of leaders who listen to input and implement it"
<water> we're talking about c-coding now, right?
<Tril> nope
<water> what, then?
<Tril> it's mainly about synergy
<hcf> water: tril was just explaining fare's earlier comments
<hcf> brb
* fare/#Tunes had problems w/ X
<Tril> there are no ideas flowing in the project, the goal is to have some ideas generated, processed, and implemented
<water> hmm... why is a group of leaders better than now? how would they decide?
<fare> what's up?
<water> better question: _why_ would they decide?
<Tril> water: because the pages ought to be maintained, at least, and there ought to be more use made of the many human resources we have
<water> k
<Tril> water: the choices are, stay the way it is, have one leader, or have a group of leaders
<Tril> water: this irc discussion is just prelininary, we wont leave anyone out (it will go to mlist after everyone here responds)
<Tril> so you agree?
* water/#tunes thinks
<water> it seems that i don't /shouldn't care one way or the other
<Tril> ok
<water> i can't see a clear benefit in any of the proposals
<Tril> your project is separate
11:40am
<Tril> so you are uninvolved
<water> it's philosophically different
<water> not just separate
<Tril> we mean to bring reflective computing to everyone, increasing mindshare of free software and expanding the community to include scientific research, and further blur the distinction between user and programmer, closing the gap between technologically elite and oppressed.
<Tril> you don't agree with those goals, then??
<water> they aren't nearly enough for me
<water> i think the key term is "ontological relativism"
<Tril> but not contradictory
<water> yes and no
<water> :)
* fare/#Tunes is in wait and see mode, regarding this management initiative
<fare> water: the crash course is interesting, although I'm not up to the level to fully understand it within the little time I alloted to reading it
<water> fare: k, thanks
<Tril> crash course??? is that the arrow docu
<water> yes, the arrow logic intro
<fare> abi: CritLink is at http://crit.org/
<Tril> water: you believe in multiple coexisting contradictory universes?
<fare> someone should review that stuff
<Tril> if someoen is to review it, mail it to review@tunes.org.
<water> tril: managing them, yes
<water> tril: i find dealing with that issue to help with computational complexity
<fare> Tril: should I mail lots of mutually unrelated URLs to review@tunes.org ?
<Tril> fare: Sure.... 
<fare> ok, I will...
<Tril> fare: Core/I will deal with them once we decide about a database
<Tril> hcf: still here?
<hcf> yep
<hcf> back
11:50am
<Tril> hcf: who else do we ask? how to guarantee a response?
<fare> Tril: that critlink stuff looks like stuff for our review project... I mean, stuff to use or to inspire from
<fare> oh oh.... dinner time
<Tril> water: Do you have problem with TUNES philosophy, or Fare's personal philosophy?
-:- fare is now known as Fare61453
<water> tril: what's the difference?
* Fare61453/#Tunes is away
<hcf> Tril: givme a sec
<Tril> water: His strict observance of traditional logic? His refusal to accept ideas that contradict his? BTW, this 2nd one is an illusion- He is always vocal about his opinions, but you must remember that if yours is different he isn't disregarding  yours or saying his is right
<Tril> it just seems that way to many people
<hcf> dismissal and delegation
<water> well, i definitely would already say that i don't like Fare's views, but if that's all the difference between the Tunes group ideology and his, then i'd have to say the same about the group
<Tril> you can't settle on a "group ideology". But you can ask me if I agree with a certain point of Fare's ideology, and I will tell you if I agree.
<hcf> Tril: cant guarantee a response, just give ppl a week to post their definitive votes to mlist or irc.
<Tril> hcf: posting votes to IRC via ChanServ memos?
<hcf> its memoserv, separate bot
<hcf> or does chanserv have a memo thing?
<hcf> anyway, have it done how ever u prefer
<Tril> hcf:what user do they send a memo to? (no, memoserv is right, i just havent used it much so I forgot)
<hcf> i elect u the vote handler ;)
<Tril> what if I dont elect you the vote handler nominator
<hcf> then i'l whine
12:00pm
<Tril> ahh
<hcf> not many ppl r comfortable w/ memoserv, perhaps not the best method
<Tril> water: I'm NOT AWARE of which of Fare's views you dislike in particular, so I can't proceed.
<Tril> water: although if I become very angry at whatever you say next, it's probably that.
<Tril> hcf: right
<hcf> s/mlist or irc/to tril via irc, email, or mlist/ # how's that? ;)
<Tril> water: thinking, or dropped connection?
<water> tril: pretty much both of them, even if the 2nd is an illusion, it's a terrible way to interact with people
<Tril> water: I kind of meant other things that I didnt list..
<Tril> water: so if we do something about the face of the group (Fare)...
<Tril> i agree too many people were flamed into silence..
<water> i ack that i flame too much as well
<Tril> Fare DOES say "fork the project" way too much
<water> i actually consider his project to be a fork of mine
<water> him suggesting that insults me because of that
<Tril> yes, that makes sense, if yours is a superset of tunes.
<water> besides, my ideas are older than his
<Tril> oh, let's not argue about that
<water> k
<hcf> Tril: will u be sending a request for votes to the mlist?
<Tril> maybe
<Tril> i'm still having a conversation with water :)
<Tril> water: so you want a project that is receiptive to the ideas of others, right?
<Tril> receptive, even
<water> receptive suggests having to agree
<Tril> AFAIK we already HAVE disagreement
<water> i want open-ness of thought just like open-ness of code
<water> make sense?
<Tril> water: We have a LLL and HLL project, which are basically contradictory
<water> yes
<Tril> water: I think you underestimate the openness of thought of everyone else besides Fare. Who else have you had problems with?
<hcf> jdl
12:10pm
<Tril> water: oh i remember a few... actually... but those were people who asked for detailed, explanations of the Arrow concept in a way they could understand, which just might not be possible.
<water> people who demand seeing a "problem solved" in arrow come to mind
<Tril> You always back off when those people show up, and assume that they speak for the entire TUNES project!
<Tril> But then, again, you also don't include them, which I do.
<water> yes
<Tril> They shouldnt be insulted for their views.
<water> what am i supposed to do?
<Tril> tell them, "Sorry, that explanation is not available at this time. It may never be. But maybe someone other than I can explain better, any takers?" and end the reply.
<Tril> the best way to learn is to teach, right? Have people who sort of understand arrow, try to explain it to those who don't get it at all
<water> yes, and then they claim that my idea is bogus
<water> vaporware
<water> that's what i've been doing on irc
<Tril> yes, I guess some people including Fare did say that.
<Tril> what were you doing on irc...?
<water> just my general explanations
<Tril> Fare61453: YOU JERK!
<water> huh?
<Tril> he is a jerk for saying your idea is bogus
<water> no
<Tril> now that we know the idea is not bogus perhaps you might consider being part of a group that is open to ideas. That's what we're discussing all along (hcf) before you joined today
<Tril> I will NOT fork TUNES, and Fare WILL agree to the new organization
12:20pm
<Tril> that is my ultimatum
* water/#tunes is not so bold
<water> although perhaps i should be
<water> btw, i'm busy doing about 4 different things right now
<Tril> well i didn't notice
<Tril> i need to go eat so you continue doing at least 3 of those things
<water> k
<Tril> i'll stop back briefly before i go to work
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (lunch for a few min...) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<water> darn
<hcf> what?
<water> he left
-:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
12:30pm
<water> now i have to go
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-96.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
-:- lar1 [LARMAN@2Cust77.tnt1.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
12:40pm
<hcf> hoy lar1
<lar1> Hey
<lar1> So whats up with TUNES
<hcf> lar1: read the log for today, u'l see ;)
<lar1> Uh oh... I get a bad feeling about this
<hcf> u did?
<lar1> It just sounds like something bad happend
* lar1/#tunes fires up lynx
<hcf> u could fire up ncftp instead u know?
<hcf> it wasnt bad
<lar1> ok good
<lar1> I am in windows... I am 0 bytes free on my linux partition... I have to fix that before I can do much ;)
<hcf> u dont truely have 0 bytes free unless ur root part.'s extra 5mb is used
<lar1> True, but it is pretty unuseable
<hcf> rm X
<lar1> That would free up a good 200
<hcf> <subliminal> do it </>
<lar1> You don't like X?
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 25 min 32 secs
<hcf> Tril: water had to go
<Tril> i see
<hcf> :(
12:50pm
<lar1> What part of the log should I read?  The thing is 43 pages long...
<Tril> lar1 what do you want to do work for? TUNES?
<lar1> I wasn't aware there were other projects...
<Tril> tunes is the only project? wow
<Tril> you havent looked very far on the net
<Tril> hcf will tell you what to do he's in charge
<lar1> No, I wasn't aware that there where other projects you were working on
<lar1> I thought you were...
<Tril> j/k
<lar1> oh :)
<Tril> there isn't really anybody in charge... that's what we were hoping to change.. we could have a group of people in charge, that were open to ideas
<Tril> what do you think?
<lar1> Personally, I'd like to see hcf and you incharge
<hcf> lar1: why do u say that?
>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] requested PING 935179057 from TUNES
<lar1> You two seem to know what you are doing and you are quite nice
<Tril> i was thinking of posting on the list that we are looking for open minded people to receive ideas 
<Tril> to be in a group that will coordinate the project
<Tril> hcf: (no need to vote...after all, the default is to stay the way it is, so that wont need to be an option, and there could be a group of 1...)
* lar1/#tunes doesn't understand enough about TUNES to coordinate it
01:00pm
<hcf> Tril: who'll be the voters?
<lar1> Members of the Tunes project?
<Tril> hcf: I said NO need to vote... no one will vote.. read what I say
<Tril> hcf: I said a request for volunteers to join the coordination group
<hcf> but thats assuming such a group is wanted
* Fare61453/#Tunes is back
-:- Fare61453 is now known as Fare
<Tril> hcf: ok...you didnt get what I said above.  If I ask for volunteers then if there is no reply, we assume everyone wants to stay the same
<Tril> hcf: If only one volunteer, then there will be a single leader.  All 3 voting options are taken care of, with no voting needed!
<hcf> thats voting by silence, bad!
<lar1> A leadership group could lead to troubles...
<Tril> hcf: That's why we should make a group even if nobody replies.
<Tril> hcf: if you want to vote, then maybe the "stay the same" shouldn't be an option
<hcf> Tril: hmm, its sounding better
<Tril> Fare, HI Welcome Back
<Tril> Fare: What are your minimum requirements for a Reformed tunes leadership? Or for an altered TUNES project?
<Tril> Fare: Minimum requirements being, what you require in order for you to remain a member
<Fare> Tril: minimum requirement is not making me so mad that I veto things and force a split
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp96.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey eihrul!
<Tril> Fare: That doesn't answer the question, it only leads to a rephrasing, "What would make you mad so that you do that?"
<Fare> I dunno, I can't tell; the question is so vague.
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: meta-tunes issues
<Tril> Fare: My goal is to have a project that is more open-minded and less critical of EVERYONE'S ideas. Now, could that project be TUNES, or will you force a split from the little I have just said?
<Fare> of course, there are things I wouldn't like, such as transforming Tunes into freedows.
<Fare> but even then, I might not care enough to force a split, as long as it doesn't prevent things from getting done.
<hcf> Fare: and what do u mean by freedows?
<Fare> hcf: content-free languages; hype-oriented system.
<hcf> Fare: perhaps u should care enuf
<Tril> hcf: Two gigantic projects that both get nothing done :)
<Tril> hcf: (But have exact same goals, just different management style and different membership lists)
<Fare> hcf: beautiful web site without any hint of code or of idea
<Tril> Freedows people if you read this, no offense I haven't looked at either project lately :)
<Tril> Hype oriented?
<Fare> since we have nothing currently, we have nothing to lose
<Fare> and CVS allows us to reuse code.
<Tril> Fare: Well, if you fork, we could lose tunes.org, and you could lose a server.
<Tril> Fare: But that won't happen
<Fare> Tril: please warn me so I make a backup of the cvs state just before the "big changes" occur...
<Fare> Tril: if you make tunes.org something valuable, I may leave tunes.org to you and start my own.
01:10pm
<Tril> Fare: "backup of CVS state" is unnecessary- CVS maintains backup states itself!
<Fare> (I mean, if you make it valuable and I disagree)
<Fare> Tril: sure, but still.
<Tril> Fare: I mean, just set a tag on the entire tree
<Tril> so you can retrieve that state
<Fare> CVS isn't resiliant to file move, etc
<Fare> and to directory reorganization
<Fare> so I'd like to have a backup before such things occur
<Fare> :)
<Tril> Fare: OK our proposal is a group of people who will be responsible for making sure TUNES proceeds, and deals with meta-issues like what is to be done next, how to find people to do it
<Fare> not that I wish such extremities as a project fork to happen
<Fare> I see nothing wrong with it
<Fare> s/it/your proposal, as such/
<Tril> Fare: Then don't flame people into being quiet with their ideas, if you don't want to fork it.
<Fare> sure sure
<Tril> Fine, then I will submit a request for volunteers/nominations to be in such group
<Fare> Did I flame people for being quiet with ideas? I did flame someone on os-ideas, but that was about non-ideas, off-topicness, etc
<Fare> Tril: count me in
<Tril> you also flamed water about his ideas being nonsense
<Fare> did I?
<hcf> Tril: paste ur msg here b4 sending
<Tril> well, forget it, it's not important now
<Tril> Fare: we all need to work on tempers (mea culpa)
<Fare> I rather flamed him about not being able to formalize and transmit his ideas.
<Fare> which is very different
<Fare> the crash course on arrow logic is certainly not nonsense
<hcf> abi: accial?
<abi> accial is "A Crash Course in Arrow Logic" at ftp://ftp.phil.uu.nl/pub/logic/PREPRINTS/preprint107.ps.Z
<hcf> (for those who didnt know)
<Fare> (it would have been nice to give us that hint earlier)
<Tril> what hint?
<Fare> accial
<hcf> Fare: he just found it
<Fare> (although accial is difficult to fully grok)
<hcf> Fare: after i gave him the reasearchindex.com url
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't grok but the easiest parts of accial
<Fare> hcf: great
<Tril> i started reading it but had to stop
<hcf> Fare: have u given reasearchindex.com a try?
<lar1> What is accial?
<abi> accial is "A Crash Course in Arrow Logic" at ftp://ftp.phil.uu.nl/pub/logic/PREPRINTS/preprint107.ps.Z
<lar1> I didn't ask you abi!
<Tril> but abi knows
<Fare> hcf: not yet
<Fare> you mean researchindex.com, don't you?
<hcf> yea
01:20pm
<lar1> Tril:  But I am in windows and have no way to read .ps
<Tril> the way i see it nobody will volunteer but lots of people will nominate other people
<lar1> poor excuse I know
<Tril> lar1: I downloaded X-Win32 and read it in gv remotely
<lar1> Tril:  Yes, very true
<hcf> lar1: there ghostscript for win
<hcf> s/there/theres/
<lar1> Tril:  Where is X-Win32?
<Tril> i guess i got it from tucows
<hcf> Tril: in the msg, say not to nominate
<Tril> why not? 
<lar1> What would being a memeber of this leadership group involve?
<hcf> Tril: cuz this aint a nomination vote
<hcf> s/vote//
<hcf> election
<Tril> well, how do you suggest?
-:- Draugath [okami@ldslppp197.sttl.uswest.net] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> lar1: can you read pdf?
-:- Draugath [okami@ldslppp197.sttl.uswest.net] has left #tunes []
<lar1> eihrul: yes
<hcf> Tril: whatcha got so far?
<eihrul> lar1: okay, one sec... will make a quick and dirty conv for ya
<lar1> Eihrul: Ok, thanks
<Tril> hcf: nothing 
<Tril> hcf: no one will volunteer to be a leader
<Tril> hcf: ok maybe they will
<Tril> ?
<hcf> leadership-esque roles, not quite the same
<Tril> there won't be any roles
<lar1> No one will volunteer to be the leader, they , might volunteer to be part of a coordination group
<hcf> s/roles/role/
<Tril> ok
<hcf> being a member is a role
<Tril> i dont have paste ability, i'll email to hcf first
<Fare> living is a role; only you never get to replay.
<hcf> Tril: cat it ;)
<Tril> how do you know?
<Fare> how do who knows what?
<Tril> oh i could use gnu screen paste but i'd have to learn how
<Tril> Fare: how do you know about life
01:30pm
<lar1> Isnt paste just hilight the text then the middle button to paste?
<eihrul> ack...
<eihrul> that one didn't come out so well
<Tril> lar1: I gave away my mouse
<eihrul> just ended up as garbage
<Tril> need a new one
<lar1> Tril: Yes you do
<Fare> Tril: how do you know that I don't?
<hcf> Tril: /exec -out cat msg
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp96.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> brb
<Tril> Fare: Let's discuss it another day, then
<Fare> hum. Researchindex.com killed my netscape.
<eihrul> lar1: plain text, but best i could do
<Fare> Happily, I had learnt (the hard way), and migrated to lynx
<Fare> Tril: ok
<lar1> eihrul:  Thats ok, thanks much
<Tril> Fare: I meant the discussion of life, i would still like to discuss TUNES today :)
<Fare> oh
<Fare> quick, then, for I gotta go soon...
<Tril> no, it's ok, nothing now..i'm writing a letter to the list about it...reply later
<Tril> more accurately, writing a letter to hcf about it..which he will review and then i will send to the list
<lar1> hcf could paste in here so we could all see it
<Fare> ok
<Fare> see you later!
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
01:40pm
<lar1> Tril:  I forgot, what do I select for hostname type over at DHS?
<Tril> static domain
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us321.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1022.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES coordination team
<Tril> sent
<Tril> brb
<Tril> back
<Tril> hcf: reading it?
<hcf> 1sec
<Tril> is it ok? I really need to get going to work soon
<Tril> hmm I left out the part about how the group will be formed
<Tril> I don't know how it will be formed, so it will be decided on mlist.
01:50pm
<hcf> Subject: Volunteers for a coordination group (draft)  From: Tril <dem@tunes.org>
<hcf> TUNES needs to be more open to ideas from everyone.  To do this, in IRC we
<hcf> have come to an agreement that we need a group of people dedicated to
<hcf> coordination of the TUNES project.  This group will be responsible for
<hcf> receiving ideas about the progress of the project.  If it does not receive
<hcf> them, it will go out of its way to get some, by sending repeated e-mails,
<hcf> asking on IRC, and any other way necessary.  The ideas will be collected
<hcf> together and the group will post a summary.
<hcf> hmm
<hcf> abi: hello?
<abi> no idea, hcf
<Tril> hmm what?
<Tril> hurry up
<hcf> ok, all who care, read www.tunes.org/~nef/msg.txt
<hcf> hmm as in, paste wasnt a good idea
<lar1> just a sec
<Tril> I'm going to take a shower. Revise that or write up some comment and I will be back in 20 minutes
<lar1> ok
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (shower 20mins) [BX-MsgLog Off]
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES coordination group
<lar1> Anyone know where a good php3 tutorial is?
02:00pm
<hcf> lar1: afaik, theres a php3 channel on efnet
<lar1> ok
<lar1> I read the first paragraph or so of that arrow thing.. I'm lost
<hcf> lar1: ur not alone
<lar1> ok, good
02:10pm
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES coordination group (the saga begins...)
<lar1> If I want to implemet a search engine what would be the best script to do it in... PHP?  Perl?
<hcf> perl
<hcf> u want to reinvent the SE wheel?
<lar1> Yes!
<lar1> I am making a SE for programming docs (mostly OS related)
<lar1> It got annoying:  Hey <insert irate programmer here> wernt you gonna send me the stupid docs on the stupid <insert chip here>??
<lar1> So I am just gonna make an SE with a large amount of docs
<lar1> Is there a perticular reason PHP would make a good SE?
<hcf> i dont really know, i'v never used php
<lar1> s/would/woundn't
<lar1> oh, ok
<hcf> i just know that perl has all the power and modules u'd need
<lar1> Couldn't I just have the user input and then grep the entire database of docs?
<lar1> that would be painfully slow
02:20pm
<hcf> find a site that uses a SE does what u want and get a copy of it
<hcf> s/does/that does/
<lar1> Why? I want to know how SEs work
<hcf> glimpse is common, but may be overkill
<hcf> Search and Research: A Study of Internet Search Engines and Techniques @ http://www.borg.com/~warrend/search.html
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 26 min 35 secs
<lar1> graicias
<hcf> Tril: looks good
<hcf> Tril: perhaps cite irc/1999.0820
<Tril> oh, so i'll just send it as it is?
<hcf> well, add the formation/voluteer part
<Tril> I don't know how it will be formed, so it will be decided on mlist.
<Tril> right?
<lar1> Deciding on mlist might not be a good idea
<lar1> We should decide one thing on mlist at a time
<Tril> hcf: add what?
<Tril> ping ping ping ping ping
<hcf> hmm
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* ultima/#Tunes looks
<Tril> i'm just gonna put "Comments on how to form this group are welcome"
<ultima> committee?
<Tril> hi
<ultima> 'lo Tril.
<hcf> why is the forming an issue?
<Tril> hcf: Because I'm afraid if it's volunteer basis, only the bold will speak up. If it's nomination then the person has to say no if they are nominated
* ultima/#Tunes speaks up
<ultima> Depends on what the committee is to do
<ultima> Nominations are better if you have a large userbase
<hcf> Tril: we ppl who irc tho
<ultima> but do you really have one?
<Tril> what is the definition of the userbase
<Tril> hcf ?
<ultima> What happened to the presidency?
<ultima> that guy
<ultima> Beholder was it?
<Tril> he's too busy to do anything.
<ultima> oh
<ultima> bummer
<ultima> eihrul what should fith do
<ultima> first off...it needs to be able to generate tiny code
<ultima> I'm not sure objectiveness is what is needed for tha
<ultima> I'd also like to get rid of the 2-stack idea
<Tril> hcf you didnt finsih that sentence
02:30pm
<eihrul> ult: well... then people have to be weary of doing calls and such
<eihrul> as it pushes return address on stack
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> thats one benefit of 2 stacks
<ultima> but on the other hand, its a lot of overhead
<ultima> a -lot- of overhead.
<hcf> nm
<Tril> hcf: do you want to be in it?
<eihrul> but then the programmer can't just play with the stack as if it were a stack of arguments
<Tril> hcf: I see you more as the one sending the ideas
<ultima> hmm
<eihrul> but actually... so long as each word only uses a fixed amount of arguments...
<eihrul> and doesn't try to get into any place where there might be an active call
<ultima> but see I'm interested in using this on a tiny avlmem machine
* ultima/#Tunes mumble
<hcf> Tril: i may want some control
<ultima> I want control
<ultima> POWER POWER POWER!
* ultima/#Tunes laughs evilly
<Tril> ultima: the coordination team is meant for processing ideas, mostly OTHER people's ideas. you allowed to have your own ideas, but can't treat them more than everyone else's.
<ultima> Tril: Actually, I want someone to tell me how to get into microcontrollers
<Tril> qz
<Tril> i mean liar
<ultima> well liar is only interested in his projects
<Tril> just ask him to show off how much he knows about them
<ultima> So...Tril...do you know much about microcontrollers?
<Tril> i barely know what it is.
<ultima> oh
<ultima> damn
<Tril> i think brand knows more, because he was building some robots that make use of them :)
<hcf> or so he says
<Tril> oor he was planning to.
<ultima> well
<ultima> brand says he does a lot of stuff
<Tril> yeah, i think he's lying about writing brix
<ultima> Seriously?
<hcf> he's trying to do as much as he can b4 his cancer kills him ;)
<lar1> Heh
<ultima> hcf: Eh?
<ultima> lar1 those schems look nerdy =)
<ultima> lar1: Where canI find those parts?
<Tril> yeah he was working for MS all along, hanging out in our channel lying to people asking aobut tunes, triyng to sabotage our project
<lar1> Ultima:  The ram and rom can be what ever ram or rom you want I bleive, but if you want to follow it exactly, try Techamerica, JDR, Digi-key,mouser, etc
<Tril> hcf: yo havent commented about whether to discuss formation on the list or to ask for volunteers
<ultima> mmm
02:40pm
<hcf> voluteers
<ultima> noo
<ultima> nominations
<hcf> Tril: so u'l end being the single member of the group
<ultima> its kewler to be nominated
<ultima> hcf i nominate you for head uh...well, something.
<lar1> I nominate hcf and tril
<ultima> I nominate abi
* hcf/#tunes says no
<abi> i decline
<lar1> Ok, I could orginze the docs into dircectory and have my script parse the user input for what direcory the doc is in... then it only would have to grep the file in the directory
<lar1> like interupt 10, would grep all files in the interupt directory for 10
<ultima> how about
<lar1> but that woludnt work too well
<ultima> microcontrollers easy
<ultima> like...
<lar1> yes I know I am off topic
<ultima> gimmie a kit i can plug a battery into and have 10 interrupt pins and 10 io pins
<lar1> That isn't going to happen for cheap
<Tril> lar1: lots of people use ht/Dig for search engine
<lar1> Tril:  I'd really like to write my own
<Tril> i hit SEND
<lar1> ultima:  use 10 16f84s
<Tril> now i am leaving to take a bus to work
<hcf> Tril: add the vol. part and post
<Tril> hcf read my post I changed the first paragraph..
<lar1> ok, have a good time tril
<Tril> bye
<ultima> lar1: No comprende
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<hcf> lar1: how bout this:
<hcf> get a pre-existing one, install/use it
<hcf> then write ur own
<lar1> Ultima:  Use 10 16f84 PICs then you have 10 int pins, and more then 10 io lines... Bidirectional at that!
<lar1> hcf:  I like your idea
<lar1> hcf:  Where might I pick up one of these neat-o neat-o engines?
<hcf> lar1: u could even let ppl use multiple engines for the same content
<ultima> lar1, your joking, right?
<lar1> ultima:  yes
02:50pm
<lar1> ultima:  I seriously thought about getting 10 z80s to work together at one time... not a bad idea... this was before SMP was doable with pIIs
-:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [02:51pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net]
* ultima/#Tunes strangles lar1 =)
<ultima> thiss stuff is -hard- =|
<lar1> What so hard?
<ultima> knowing nothing about it
<ultima> see if anything
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<ultima> its just that there are no real places telling me what to do
<ultima> its like 'ok we sell this shit, go buy it at a retailer'
<lar1> What questions do you have?
<ultima> How do I get started knowing nearly nothing about electronics
<lar1> Do you know any digital theory?
<ultima> define digital theory
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
<lar1> Logic levels, logic gates, number systems, etc
<ultima> er
<ultima> uh
<ultima> probably not
<ultima> i know binary math =)
<lar1> There is a start ;)
<lar1> Do you have an EPROM programmer?
<ultima> nope
<lar1> Hmm
<ultima> i wish i did
<lar1> That will make for a minor diffculty
<ultima> i am a good coder...i can do assembler and all that.
<lar1> Yes I konw
<ultima> how much is an eprom programmer?
<lar1> Couple hundred
<ultima> fsxk
<ultima> i can't afford that
<ultima> hmm
<lar1> You could get an i2c eeprom, make a i2c->parallel cable, and write a program to write to the eerpom... then make a z80->i2c interface... that alot of coding, plus you would still need some kind of eprom so nevermind
<lar1> Why do you need 10 ints?  Cant you muliplex the io pins of a 16f84?
<ultima> dude, i know nothing about this stuff.
<ultima> I assumed int was just pumping a voltage into a pin, like it seems when coding 
03:00pm
<lar1> I thought you said you have done 16f84 work before...
<ultima> uhm,no?
<lar1> Ohhhhh
<ultima> I'm coming frmo nothing
<lar1> http://www.microchip.com
<ultima> I've -never- done any real hardware work before, which is why I'm doing this.
<ultima> And I've got that site open.
<lar1> use the 16f84... cheap to program, cheap chip, easy to code for, lots of bidirectional IO pins
<lar1> Starting with a Z80 might not be the best idea
<ultima> ok
<ultima> uh
<ultima> how much for a complete kit
<ultima> and how much memory can I give that thing?
<ultima> is 1.75kb the max memory or what?
<lar1> It has internal eeprom for data and flash for yer code
<lar1> I don't remember the exact amount of memory it has
<ultima> it says 1.75kb...
<ultima> does that sound a bit low?
<lar1> I think so
<ultima> hrm
<ultima> 1024x14 Words
<ultima> it also says tha
<ultima> not sure what that means
<lar1> Huh... that makes 0 sence
<lar1> lemme take a look...
<ultima> im downloading the .pdf now...
<lar1> ok, that is a pretty informative document
<ultima> where would I buy this stuff?
<lar1> JDR has them
<lar1> Pretty much any major supplyer
03:10pm
<ultima> JDR?
<ultima> well
<ultima> i know of no suppliers
<ultima> i don't buy this stuff too often;)
<lar1> TechAmerica, Mouser, Digi-Key
<lar1> I don't think RadioShack would have them though
<ultima> grr
<ultima> i've never heard of any of these places
* lar1/#tunes is working on a BASIC -> 16f84 asm compiler
<ultima> ack
<lar1> Well I kida have to eat, then work for about an hour
<lar1> Soo, I'll be back soon
-:- lar1 is now known as lar_away
<ultima> argh
<ultima> 16f84 looks incredibly limited...!
<eihrul> don't look at it as limitation
<eihrul> look at it as simplicity
<ultima> dude
<ultima> 1k program memory
<ultima> 64bytes of eeprom data memory
<ultima> wtf
<ultima> canyou add more or what?
<ultima> its 4 interrupts and 13 io ports on an 18pin chip
<eihrul> that 286 is starting to look good, no? :)
<ultima> no
<ultima> i can't make a 286
!lilo:*! Please, folks, don't do glines directly.  The short term of the glines generated by AKILL is deliberate and allows us to reduce the effective length of a GLINE if we decide to.
03:20pm
!Hyrlik:*! huh?
<eihrul> 1k program memory ain't so bad
<eihrul> if someone can make a TCP/IP stack in 512, you can program a robot in 1k
!^lilo:*! AKILL generates GLINES, but short ones, and renews them as needed
!^lilo:*! if you do a GLINE we run into the problem that you can't reduce the term of a GLINE, only deactivate it temporarily
<ultima> uh
!Hyrlik:*! okay, hows the formatting go ?
<ultima> i'd really like to see a tcpip stack in 512bytes
<ultima> -really-
!lilo:*! do a /msg operserv akill add
!lilo:*! it'll tell you, or it will tell you that you can't do it
<eihrul> me too :)
<eihrul> maybe if it was in forth...
!lilo:*! and I can't stress enough, let me know when you do these, people :)
!Hyrlik:*! but those aren't fun
!lilo:*! they aren't supposed to be fun ;)
!lilo:*! we'd like you to do as few of them as possible ;)
!Hyrlik:*! I have a personal quota to fill
!is:*! does AKILL do a /kill as well?
!Hyrlik:*! its already the end of the month...
!lilo:*! This applies to server-wide problems, not channel problems.  Normally you do your AKICK's or bans on channel if you are running one....thanks.
!lilo:*! Hyrlik hmph
!Hyrlik:*! I see you don't like my sense of humor
!lilo:*! is: it issues the GLINE immediately
!Hyrlik:*! /msg operserve akill add *!lilo@*.* 
!is:*! oic
!is:*! haha
!Hyrlik:*! oops
!lilo:*! Hyrlik :b :)
!lilo:*! Please note, on most clients you can turn these messages off nicely with /umode -w .... thanks
<eihrul> or had really small instruction encoding
!lilo:*! You may listen to wallops but you don't have to. :)
!is:*! We are not secretly brainwashing
<ultima> less than 8bit?
<eihrul> nah...
<eihrul> i don't know the details really, it was on slashdot :)
<AlonzoTG> om
03:30pm
<eihrul> er wait... it was 512 words
<ultima> heh
<ultima> and how big is a word on it?
<eihrul> search for "web server" on slashdot
<eihrul> it's in the first article tat pops up
<eihrul> abi: ack! 
!drow:*! No, I would say we weren't being secret about it at all.
<ultima> search for "web server" on slashdot
<ultima> hmmmmm
<ultima> heh
<ultima> search for lame
<ultima> search for ultima
<eihrul> search for ultima
<ultima> search for qzx
<ultima> rofl
<ultima> search for eihrul
<eihrul> search for eihrul
<ultima> search for sex
<eihrul> damn...
<eihrul> abi remembers a lot of stuff
<eihrul> search for fare
<hcf> that searches keys only
<Crimson> If you guys wonder why i just disappears suddenly, it is because of my bad isp. c ya!
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<lar_away> That tcpip stack in 512 was a hoax
<lar_away> and you can add more data storage
<lar_away> but not program storage
<ultima> oh
<ultima> and program storage can't easily be changed
03:40pm
<ultima> since its 1k with 1000 write lifetime
<lar_away> umm, its 10,000 cycles
<ultima> so i can't swap
<ultima> that sucks
<ultima> no
<ultima> its 1000 cycles
<eihrul> well, it sounded cool atleast :)
<ultima> 1000 cycle for flash, 10 million for the eeprom (thatsonly 64bytes!!!!)
<lar_away> Ok
<lar_away> Well you asked for simple...
-:- lar_away is now known as lar1
<ultima> thats -too- simple.
<lar1> Ult: How much memory do you need??
<ultima> well
<ultima> as much as possible
<ultima> my project is a data retriever
<lar1> That robot thing?
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> its gonna run around a room, trying to map it
<lar1> Thats pretty simple
<ultima> 1k rom 64byte ram isn't enough 
<ultima> not by a long shot
<ultima> eight-level stack sucks too
<lar1> You need more more ram... and... welll 10k would be much better for rom
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> i would love 1mb shared ram/rom/stack
<lar1> You could check out a higer pic, they just came out with the 18x
<lar1> Or you could go back to the z80
<ultima> hmm
<ultima> i need easy though
<ultima> im thinking it might not be a bad idea to find a prebuilt kit =)
<lar1> I don't know where you would get something like that
<lar1> You could check out the Atmel chips... they are pic like, I don't know if they have more storage or not
<ultima> grr!
<ultima> this is seriously turning me off...
<lar1> What kinda class are you doing this for?
03:50pm
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<ultima> generic
<ultima> its just supposed to be somethiong we know nothing about
<lar1> Sew a shirt
<ultima> fsck you
<ultima> =)
<lar1> :)
<lar1> You could post to the robotocs newsgroup... there are many people that more more then me about this stuff... mabye they know where to get a kit
<eihrul> ult: why something you know nothing about?
<ultima> eihrul because its supposed to be a 'growing experience'
<eihrul> as... that's kind of insulting
<eihrul> er ah
<KiLoPtIcA> lar1 does that stand for laura
<lar1> Kilo: Nope
<eihrul> ult: they are stating that you have no capability for growth other than at their bidding
<ultima> eihrul basically
<lar1> eihrul:  Yes, I aggree
<ultima> but if i don't do good on this project I fail.
<eihrul> and for many students
<eihrul> that could be true, unfortunately
<ultima> eihrul, that is the whole point of it.
<eihrul> you fail!?!?!
<ultima> however, I still have to do it.
<ultima> yep
<eihrul> you mean they won't graduate you unless you do this?
<KiLoPtIcA> come to my channel called teens
<ultima> correct
<KiLoPtIcA> come to my channel called teens
<ultima> suck my dick kiloptica
<smkl> do you want us to get you klined ?
<eihrul> that is very screwy
<KiLoPtIcA> fuck you uncle fucker bitch
<ultima> eihrul: Yeah. 
<ultima> eihrul: And its full of B$.
<eihrul> i hope i don't have that slapped upon me...
<KiLoPtIcA> bullshit mother fucker homie bitch
<ultima> me too
<ultima> its going nationwide
<ultima> u might have it.
* ultima/#Tunes just sighs
<eihrul> well wouldn't i have been notified about it before the summer?
<ultima> eihrul not necessarily
<ultima> i don't know your school
* KiLoPtIcA/#tunes slaps everyone withhis extencively long dick
<eihrul> but here's the thing: they have no idea what you don't know
<lar1> 4 Kb flash 256 eeprom 20 IO pins 14 INT pins, 40 pin package, its an atmel chip
<eihrul> ult: you could take advantage of that
<ultima> lar1 no
<ultima> not enough eeprom
<KiLoPtIcA> goto tenns
<KiLoPtIcA> dfklhkasdfgudbasjnfghjjxdfgujgxfisdlaftyweyurtweuqiytweuqyrtwuiywetweuit
<ultima> lar1, i'll need to store a lot of data in it
<ultima> 20k at least
<lar1> I don't know of a chip like that
<lar1> BRB
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<eihrul> someone kick him? :)
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<lar1> Who ever can get op... please...
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<ultima> kiloptica: Go away. Come back when you grow up, you little idiot.
<KiLoPtIcA> werwegweruyterwuteqwuierwtweruyitweruierwtuweritutuefsgdfdfgdsgffdggfdfdgfdgdfghkdfjhfdgkjhgfdljkhfdkjhfdkjdfghkdfjhvcxjkbvrieuy93749743078bhdsfbasdjbfjsfbasdfjdhsbasdfjbbsdfajhbsdfjhfsdgasdfhjgsdjsdfgjasdfhgdfsjhdsfgajdfsgfsdjgajsdfgsdfjghcbxzjhgiu4yrew98723409uiojsdjksahiluewiqerlyweiouewrhiuoyqwehkewjqbfuidsghbsdfsauygfsuiqeqweioweuqgwefsdfabasd
<KiLoPtIcA> root my partition bitch
<smkl> only tril and fare can get ops here, if you don't want to /ignore him like i do, complain to #openprojects
<ultima> smkl, don't you have an Oline?
04:00pm
<smkl> nope
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04:10pm
-:- maderface [user5834@98AC2A8E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #Tunes
<ultima> what the fuck
<maderface> so what the f***
<ultima> wtf are you
<maderface> at home if you are talking to the maderface
<ultima> no, I want to know -who- you are.
<ultima> Because your isp's lameness preceeds you.
<smkl> or what
<maderface> ttfn(ta ta for now)
-:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
-:- maderface [user5834@98AC2A8E.ipt.aol.com] has left #Tunes []
<ultima> rofl
<eihrul> where are all these weirdos coming from?
04:20pm
<smkl> they want to takeover our channel because it's so small and there are no ops
<ultima> heheheh
<eihrul> smkl: why is this channel worth taking?
<ultima> hehe
<eihrul> after all, #Tunes by any other name is no less #Tunes
-:- sr [depag@phila-dialup311.nni.com] has joined #tunes
<smkl> it's worth taking because you'll be pissed off
<eihrul> not necessarily...
* ultima/#Tunes steals his channel
<ultima> he left irc i think
<eihrul> i'm only in this channel because of the people in it
<ultima> so i registered #teens
<ultima> well yeah same here
<smkl> why otherwise you'd be on a channel?
<sr> smkl?
<abi> somebody said smkl was a spam bot who got stranded in #tunes
<eihrul> so that defeats the premise of taking a channel
<ultima> lilo is pissed at me because i hang on #Linpeople because of friends there, not to help people.
<eihrul> since people can simply migrate to another channel
<sr> talking about takeovers?
<ultima> hostile fuckin takeovers
<ultima> its back from the efnet days when running #hackers made you elite
<sr> ultima are you the same ultima of "Team CodeZero"? :P
<ultima> wow
<ultima> i'm fuckin famous
<ultima> I didn't know anyone actually -read- that.
<sr> heh
<ultima> That was back in my crax0r dayz.
<smkl> i registered #teensonlinux ... he was on that channel
<sr> "Generic port scanner by [ultima]"
<smkl> eihrul: still causes a lot of trouble
<eihrul> well, abi here is loyal to the end :)
<eihrul> she'll never leave the channel... barring disconnections of course
04:30pm
<lar1> ult:  You were a cracker?
<ultima> lar1 yeah
<smkl> (and of course, not many people could takeover a channel on OPN)
<ultima> 3y3 wuz an 3l33t crax0r
<ultima> I think I'm also the only person who has ever taken over the entire OPN network, not once, not twice, but three seperate times.
<lar1> wow cool
<ultima> I also hold the record for the longest contiguous k-line here, and I am pretty sure I've had the most temporary k-lines too.
<smkl> why ?
<ultima> because i was an elite crax0r
<lar1> you don't crack anymore?
<sr> lar1: do you?
<Tril> gonna reboot bespin, trying latest kernel
<lar1> sr: no
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (rebooting)
<sr> cracking always holds some appeal to people involved with computers
<lar1> Yes
<ultima> well
<sr> noone has never considered cracking
<ultima> I did cracking because I was on a power trip
<ultima> See...I had just enough skill to be very dangerous
<eihrul> sr: i never really did
<sr> ultima: are you a programmer or do you just run others' scripts?
<ultima> I was beyond skript kiddie enough that I never got busted and I could usually talk my way out of anything, but I did a lot of shit.
<eihrul> sr: i've wished i could crack annoying crax0rs who come and cause toruble... but other than that
<ultima> And I did write several of my own programs.
-:- Signon time  :    Mon Aug  9 14:26:43 1999
-:- Signoff time :    Fri Aug 20 16:34:42 1999
-:- Total uptime :   11d  2h  7m 59s
BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.
IRC log ended Fri Aug 20 16:34:43 1999