IRC log started Tue Jul 20 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0720
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<hcf> gail: part #tunes
<gail> goodbye, hcf.
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01:30am
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<hcf> hi Enki
<Enki> hello
<abi> hello, Enki
<Enki> *bows lightly*
<Enki> :)
01:40am
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<bob> hey
06:50am
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* Plundis/#tunes i back..
<Plundis> is even
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!sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT wang.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
07:10am
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<Plundis> s_r.
<s_r> what does Chaos do to make message passing fast?
<eihrul> s_r: there's only one way to do fast message passing :)
<Plundis> s_r: it doesn't copy the messages.
<Plundis> it just maps the memory into the destination process virtual memory.
<s_r> that's good
<eihrul> plundis: umm, that is freaky...
<eihrul> plundis: i've never thought of it that way, you just map the pages read only?
<eihrul> and that's the end of it?
<Plundis> eihrul: no, it's very smart. it makes it extremely fast especially when sending large blocks.
<s_r> Plundis: is Chaos fast on your 386?
<eihrul> i mean freaky in that i've never heard of it :)
<Plundis> eihrul: currently, I think we map them read-write.
<eihrul> well that's bad
<Plundis> eihrul: but that should be fixed now that we've got the read-only-stuff to work.
<eihrul> because the receiver can then modify the sender's buffer
<Plundis> s_r: yeah, pretty much so.
<eihrul> what about multipart messages?
<Plundis> s_r: most of it has been developed for my 386-sx, so it's pretty well written.
<Plundis> eihrul: what is a multipart message?
<s_r> Plundis: why didn't you write the kernel in asm
<eihrul> basically, it allows a message to be composed of several different buffers
<eihrul> so if you need to send data from two different pieces of memory, you don't have to copy it into a temporary buffer first
<Plundis> s_r: it makes it more difficulty to develop and keep up IMO.
<eihrul> actually, wait... that's just shared memory :)
<Plundis> eihrul: yes.. :-)
07:20am
<Plundis> I don't really see the problem, sorry.
<eihrul> which most OS's provide :)
<eihrul> silly me, too early in the morning
<eihrul> well it takes time to copy into a single buffer :)
<Plundis> eihrul: you'll just have to send two messages.
<Plundis> we have some kind of queue for that, I think.
<eihrul> hrmm, it's not synchronous though
<Plundis> no..
<eihrul> you'd need semaphores to make sure you don't mess with the buffer before the receiver is done wouldn't you?
<Plundis> hmm.. I think we should connect our IRC server to this network.
<Plundis> eihrul: yeah.
<eihrul> hhrmm, how does the receiver "receive" the message?
<eihrul> ah, mailbox of some sort
<Plundis> eihrul: yeah, something like that.
<Plundis> it's rather unfinished yet, though.
<Plundis> we'd appreciate some help. :)
<s_r> Plundis: are you going to write an mp3 player for Chaos>
<s_r> ?
<Plundis> s_r: strange question.. :-)
<Plundis> don't really know. we'll probably just port xmms or something.
<eihrul> plundis: that a proposition? :)
<Plundis> eihrul: yes. :-)
* Plundis/#tunes is getting to dinner now. think about it meanwhile. :)
07:30am
<eihrul> well, i'm very critical about how i write my code... :)
<s_r> eihrul: work on your OS
<s_r> you're wasting time on IRC
<eihrul> haha, i irc and code at the same time
<eihrul> i've already wasted a year on irc, it's not like a little more will hurt
<s_r> can i see your OS code?
<eihrul> all i have is a memory manager
<eihrul> and some inline asm routines
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<s_r> eihrul you've wasted your life
<eihrul> eh, i've onl ybeen alive a year?
07:40am
<eihrul> odd, i seem to remember a lot farther back than that...
<eihrul> and if i've wasted my life on irc, then why are you on irc to tell me this? :P
<s_r> not on irc
<s_r> you've wasted your life doing what you have been doing, not just irc
<eihrul> oh, ok
<eihrul> but in that sense... we're all wasting our lives
<eihrul> why bother doing anything, we're all going to die anyway, right?
<eihrul> since inevitably, everything we ever do will have no meaning to us once we die
<s_r> hmmm eihrul the philosopher?
<eihrul> hey, you started it man
<s_r> eihrul why did you spend your time on irc if you now look at it as a waste?
<eihrul> i don't... you said it was a waste
07:50am
<eihrul> but then again, why do YOU think it's a waste?
<s_r> nothing gained
<eihrul> okay, so then why are you here?
<s_r> because i've wasted my life :)
<AlonzoTG> me is too lazy to die =P
<eihrul> ah, ok, that's fine then
<eihrul> so long as you aren't trying to do something productive like become a politician :)
<AlonzoTG> om
<s_r> eihrul: do you read frequently?
<eihrul> yep
08:00am
<s_r> reading and learning are not wastes of time
<eihrul> but a great many things i have to put up with are, but that's another story...
<s_r> are you surrounded by idiots?
<eihrul> you mean the politicians? :)
<s_r> were you ever cheated in your life?
<eihrul> by definition, no... noone can ever be
08:10am
<s_r> do you like to code?
<eihrul> how could i not?
<s_r> i'm working on a hyperprogramming compiler
<s_r> what are you working on right now?
<eihrul> just a microkernel
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08:20am
* AlonzoTG/#tunes whacks abi on the nose
* s_r/#tunes hits AlonzoTG with an iron butterfly
* eihrul/#tunes whacks everyone with a sub-machine gun
* s_r/#tunes whacks eihrul with a C++ primer
* AlonzoTG/#tunes has decided not to die
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> And I won't!
<s_r> Alonzo: need help with your OS?
<AlonzoTG> I'm off to skule now...
<AlonzoTG> I need to learn more about how to pogrom LiNuKs
<AlonzoTG> =\
08:30am
<s_r> just use Bochs
<s_r> to run your OS components
<AlonzoTG> bochs =?
<s_r> bochs?
<abi> bochs is probably a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga
<AlonzoTG> but eye kan't link! =(
<s_r> why do you need to program LiNuKs for your OS work?
<AlonzoTG> bbmml
<s_r> why can't you link? just make .o files and use gcc
<eihrul> that's descriminatory towards files that don't end in .o extensions
<eihrul> er dis
<s_r> link object files
<s_r> i don't know how Alonzo could be having problems
<s_r> unless he's using a different file format
<eihrul> well, maybe it's his spelling
<eihrul> if he spelled gcc in phonetics, it wouldn't work
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<s_r> heh eihrul
<s_r> gee cee cee
* Plundis/#tunes is back..
08:40am
<s_r> Plundis: storm is _really_ small
<s_r> compared to most other kernels
<eihrul> that could be why it's a *micro* kernel
<s_r> obviously
<Plundis> s_r: we know.
<Plundis> s_r: the memory usage will shortly get down to 1090k again.
<Plundis> 100k even..
<eihrul> how many tasks you fitting in that 100k?
<s_r> 100k for just the kernel?
<Plundis> s_r: yes.
<Plundis> it's not very much really.
<Plundis> when you read the list of features..
<s_r> i'm going to fit mine into 4k
<s_r> i hope
<Plundis> s_r: that's truly nano..
<Plundis> what will your kernel contain?
<s_r> nothing hehe
<Plundis> =)
<s_r> it will be a null kernel
08:50am
<Plundis> remember that we've got memory protection, takss and stuff like that in the kernel.
<eihrul> someone already beat you to it
<eihrul> there's a "hello, world" nanokernel in the oskit 
<s_r> eihrul your kernel is going to be nanokernel, right?
<eihrul> though we just established nano kernels don't do anything :)
<s_r> Plundis: what makes ChaOS so fast?
<Plundis> s_r: nothing really, yet.
<Plundis> s_r: it's just very minimal yet.. I guess.
<Plundis> our goal is not to make the fastest operating system available. we have totally different goals.
09:00am
* s_r/#tunes is away... [CX]
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<AlonzoTG> How the fuck do you create a new file format, link files into it, and then use it to load stuff. =(((
<s_r> alonzo first write a paper about the file format
<s_r> get all your ideas together
<s_r> then read ld source code
<s_r> make a linker
<s_r> modify gcc to output that file format
<ElGato> i was gonna download gcc on bespin for ld but i decided not to use up it's bandwidth :\
<s_r> do you like bespin?
<ElGato> my linux box is on the way
<s_r> does it remind you of star wars?
<ElGato> hmmm
<ElGato> not really
<s_r> when you get your linux box, will you get a dedicated connection and a domain name?
<s_r> el.gato.com
<ElGato> um
<ElGato> im gonna wait till i get dsl
<ElGato> im not sharing 48k
<ElGato> www.bueno-labs.com or www.bueno-labs.org
<s_r> i don't think you get static IPs with dsl
<ElGato> oh well
* ElGato/#tunes trys to remember how he came up  bueno labs
10:20am
<s_r> "well i was eating a burrito one day and..."
* Plundis/#tunes is reading through the JeniOS home page..
<ElGato> sr: hahah could be
<s_r> Plundis have you seen OpenBLT?
<Plundis> s_r: nope.. is it an OS?
<ElGato> s_r: do you have a homepage or something?
<s_r> yes
<s_r> www.openblt.org
<s_r> it's as generic a microkernel as you'll get
<s_r> it's nothing special, just a solid, conventional microkernel
<Plundis> ok..
<Plundis> free, I presume?
<s_r> y
<ElGato> es
<s_r> hehe
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || slim <http://birch.eecs.lehigh.edu/slim/> || chaos <http://www.chaosdev.org> || rkt <http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse/index.html> || os web <http://www.osweb.8m.com>
<s_r> ElGato have you done any work on Lengua?
<ElGato> unfortunately no
<ElGato> i NEED to talk to fare
<ElGato> but he's always asleep !!!
<s_r> about what?
<hcf> ElGato: he be busy w/ his POPL paper
<ElGato> he told me about a "great site for lexing and parsing" but didn't give me a url
<ElGato> I got to prelexer done
<AlonzoTG> om
<ElGato> but that isn't much of an acheivment
<s_r> so you're having trouble parsing?
10:30am
<s_r> ?
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<ElGato_> sorry
<ElGato_> my isp is whacked out
<ElGato_> i don't have _trouble_ with the parser
<ElGato_> im just not sure how i will go about doing it
<s_r> simple. (c)
<ElGato_> no 
<s_r> just use superparser99 (c)
<s_r> a MicroSoft product
<s_r> a plugin for any language
<ElGato_> uhhh
<ElGato_> s_r im really confused about you
<s_r> MicroSoft RULES
<ElGato_> uhhh...
<Plundis> s_r: yes.
<Plundis> Microsoft is cool.
<s_r> heheh
<Plundis> innovative.
<s_r> i'm kidding
<Plundis> good programmers.
<Plundis> s_r: oh.. I'm serious. :)
<s_r> microsoft uses good programmers to bad ends
<s_r> they may have good programmers but their products are still bloated
<s_r> and not open source
<s_r> and uncustomizable
<s_r> and poorly implemented
<Plundis> yyou mean "free software". :)
<ElGato_> microsoft has good programmers but they don't give them the time or resources to make good products
<s_r> good programmers working for money, not for love
<ElGato_> BAH!
<hcf> ElGato: http://www.netline.com/tutorial/main.html, http://www.first.gmd.de/cogent/catalog/, http://www.angelfire.com/ar/CompiladoresUCSE/COMPILERS.html, http://www.compilerconnection.com/, http://www.eg3.com/softd/compiler.htm
<hcf> http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/, http://cs.wwc.edu/~aabyan/464/Book/, http://users.erols.com/ir7695a/compiler/doc.html, http://iecc.com/compilers/crenshaw/, http://solair.eunet.yu/~milicicd/, http://iecc.com/compilers/
<Plundis> s_r: but is such a programmer really a "good programmer"?
* ElGato_/#tunes ^5's hcf
<ElGato_> thanks
<hcf> ElGato_: now get to reading and working
<ElGato_> aye aye
<s_r> DETECTED: id #2512 "hcf-URL-flood" ERROR ERROR Danger Will Robinson! Danger hcf!
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
>>> s_r [sr@phila-dialup504.nni.com] requested VERSION  from #tunes
10:40am
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?)
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-:- ElGato_ is now known as ElGato
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<s_r> ElGato: what specific problems are you having parsing?
11:00am
<ElGato> s_r: none now
<ElGato> thanks to hcf :)
<AlonzoTG> om
<ElGato> why must all these people use flex
<ElGato> it doesn't help me out any
<s_r> elgato what have you learned?
<ElGato> s_r: stuff 
<ElGato> :D
<s_r> like what? please tell me i'm interested
11:10am
<s_r> http://www.netline.com/tutorial/main.html
<ElGato> welll im in the process of reading a very informative page
<s_r> ahhhhhh
<s_r> i see
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to leran more about neural networkz =\
<hcf> abi: ann?
<abi> somebody said ann was Artificial Neural Networks at http://www.gc.ssr.upm.es/inves/neural/ann1/anntutorial.html
<ElGato> AlonzoTG: me too
<ElGato> what do yuou need to make an nn for al?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is going to build one bad bot.
<AlonzoTG> =P
<ElGato> oh?
<AlonzoTG> artificial gf
<AlonzoTG> =P
<ElGato> i was working on an nn bot till i started working on system stuff
<s_r> ElGato: LosLamos is a good name for a host
<ElGato> why?
<s_r> it's mexican :)
<ElGato> uh
<ElGato> no it's spanish
<ElGato> :P
<s_r> so will you do your dev work (compiler/lang/OS) on your new linux computer?
<ElGato> yess indeed
<s_r> with Bochs, right?
<ElGato> im not sure i know what bochs is
<s_r> QZ uses it to test his BRiX functions
<ElGato> i just use gcc and another 486 to test os stuff
11:20am
<Plundis> ElGato: you will want bochs too. :)
<ElGato> i don't know what it is
<s_r> Bochs?
<abi> hmmm... Bochs is a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga
<ElGato> my old developent environment was debug.com and a hex editor
<s_r> 99 luftballoons
<ElGato> uh huh
<Plundis> ElGato: ouch..
<Plundis> Bochs is great. too bad it isn't really chaos-compatible..
<s_r> Plundis: i have a question about OS design
<s_r> err x86 architecture rather
<Plundis> s_r: ok.. shoot.
<s_r> i want to have a sys call called "wait4me()"
<s_r> and what it does is put the calling app to sleep
<s_r> change status from _PRUNNING
<s_r> to _PSLEEP
<s_r> so what it does is there's  alib call
<s_r> wait4me()
<s_r> and the app calls wait4me() from the lib
<s_r> wait4me() calls int 20h
<s_r> or whatever int 
<s_r> and int 20h changes the process's status
<s_r> and then iret
<s_r> and then wait4me() rets
<s_r> but the app would continue running
<s_r> how do i make it so it sleeps after that
<s_r> i need it to be put to sleep immediately after the sys call
<s_r> app would continue running until next schedule()
<s_r> i want to stop earlier
<Plundis> you'll have to reschedule and and call the dispatcher manually.
* ElGato/#tunes thinks that after s_r figures it out he shouuld write a linux hack
<Plundis> ElGato: hacking Linux is pointless since it's so basically faulty designed.
<s_r> ok
11:30am
<AlonzoTG> in LiNuKs u just set up a sigalarm... then sleap();
<s_r> Linux is beyond hope or repair
<s_r> we need a NEW OS
<AlonzoTG> sr: agreed
<Plundis> s_r: it's on it's way. :-)
<Plundis> s_r: you're very welcome to help if you want to.
<AlonzoTG> Still I will need to study its environment to provide backwards compatability for legacy apps....
<s_r> that's part of the Chaos design, no legacy support, right plundis?
<s_r> Compiler Writer's Guide for the Alpha 21264
<s_r>                 EC-RJ66A-TE (June 1999)
<s_r> elgato
<ElGato> YES!
<s_r> tehre's a pdf on compiler design for the Alpha processor
<ElGato> where?
<s_r> http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/info/semiconductor/literature/dsc-library.html
<ElGato> ok thanks
<s_r> i think it's mostly alpha technical stuff
* ElGato/#tunes fears he overcomments his code
<s_r> elgato you're coding already?
<s_r> the scanner? the scope analyzer? the assembler? which part?
<ElGato> uh yeah i started a while ago
<ElGato> the scanner silly billy ;)
<ElGato> ohyeah i started with the code generator
<Plundis> s_r: yes.
* Plundis/#tunes thinks backwards compatibility is one of the most evil things in the computer world nowadays.
* ElGato/#tunes must also refreash himself on dynamic memory allocation
<s_r> so let's see you have a scanner that takes the words and places them into tokens
<ElGato> nnno
<ElGato> really i only have a prelexer
<ElGato> im writing the tokenizer right now
11:40am
<s_r> hmmm my modem has transferred 53 mega bytes so far
<ElGato> have you been downloading?
<ElGato> mine's like 6k
<s_r> i've been downloading mp3s the whole time
<s_r> i'm amassing an mp3 collection
* s_r/#tunes is also downloading some Alpha technical documentation
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<s_r> i'm seriously considering doing all my OS dev on alphas
<ElGato> well i suggest you get an alpha box
<ElGato> hi smkl
<smkl> hello ElGato
<ElGato> how's finland?
<s_r> i saw a 533MHz alpha on ebay.com for $250
<s_r> just the processor and mb
<s_r> ElGato: how's CA?
* ElGato/#tunes looks out the window
<ElGato> sunny with clear skys
11:50am
<ElGato> what kind of prices are current alphas?
<s_r> the 666MHz?
<ElGato> yeah
<s_r> i don't know
<s_r> i've only seen them on companies like DCG inc
<s_r> on those companies' websites
<s_r> they sell them for absurd prices
<ElGato> are you gonna run the alpha linux on it?
<s_r> yeah i would like Digital Unix but a) the firmware for digital unix costs too much and b) the source code to the OS costs too much too
<s_r> i'm not sure if i should just get a p2/p3 and run linux on that or an alpha 
<ElGato> if you have the oppertunity get the alpha
<ElGato> x86 is nothing compared to it
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<s_r> ya
<smoke> hi
<ElGato> hello
<s_r> hi
<abi> salut, s_r
<AlonzoTG> om
<s_r> alonzo: what does "om" mean?
<s_r> ElGato: if core keeps up his work, you might want to run clementine :)
<ElGato> !!!
<ElGato> if we all keep up our work i might want to run tunes
<s_r> what's core's website?
<ElGato> www.tunes.com/~core
<s_r> core has code. tunes is entirely nonexistant
<hcf> s_r: om is in hinduism, a word of affirmation or assent intoned as part of a mantr or as a symbolic mystical utterance during meditation
<ElGato> BAH!
<ElGato> if you know how to meditate you don't need to 'om'
<AlonzoTG> om?
<abi> well, om is in hinduism, a word of affirmation or assent intoned as part of a mantr or as a symbolic mystical utterance during meditation
<Plundis> hcf: it also means "about" in swedish. :)
<hcf> Plundis: i dont care about swedish
12:00pm
<s_r> German is a beautiful language
<ElGato> ja
<ElGato> sehr schön
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Plundis> hcf: too bad..
<ElGato> y espanol tambien
<ElGato> espanol es muy bonito
<ElGato> por eso hablo espanol
<ElGato> un poco
<ElGato> :(
<s_r> bwhahahah www.darwinawards.com
<smkl> doesn't "om" mean "if" in swedish?
<Plundis> smkl: that too.
<s_r> i'm really looking forward to the code releases of brix and clementine
<Plundis> smkl: ah, you're finnish. hyvvä!
<ElGato> uh yeah
<ElGato> the BRiX code release
<ElGato> im not holding my breath
<s_r> BRand's unIX
<ElGato> oh so that's what it means
<ElGato> i knew brix heald an astounding similarity to UNIX
<hcf> ElGato: so r u redoing ur langauge design or sticking w/ it?
<s_r> sure shot!
<ElGato> my ideas now im sticking with
<ElGato> doesn't mean i won't add on though
<s_r> his silly ideas about a SEXP language
<s_r> i like the OO part
<ElGato> uhhh
<s_r> but i also like his old idea about integration of low level and high level
<ElGato> what's silly about SEXP?
<ElGato> i don't see how BRiX will ever be ported 
<s_r> it's silly because i don't understand it well :)
12:10pm
<ElGato> like i said talk to fare
<ElGato> he knows all about that crap
<s_r> ElGato: is there any chance your OS will be made in C?
<ElGato> s_r: not really
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<s_r> it's the C++ wizard himself, eihrul
<eihrul> eh?
* s_r/#tunes is joking
<eihrul> well, i mean, how did you know? :)
<s_r> heh
<s_r> i know your secret
* ElGato/#tunes is wondering when QZ will compile the latest kernel for BRiX
12:20pm
<s_r> time to get more SNES roms
<eihrul> s_r: legally of course? :)
<ElGato> bah
<ElGato> roms suck
<ElGato> they're only good if you have no way to play  them normally
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (back to 100hz)
<ElGato> or better yet 2600hz
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us918.javanet.com] requested PING 932499181 from TUNES
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup504.nni.com])
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || slim <http://birch.eecs.lehigh.edu/slim/> || chaos <http://www.chaosdev.org> || rkt <http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse/index.html> || os web <http://www.osweb.8m.com> || Stack Computers: the new wave <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/koopman/www/stack_computers/index.html>
<hcf> damn
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES <http://www.tunes.org> || slim <http://birch.eecs.lehigh.edu/slim/> || chaos <http://www.chaosdev.org> || rkt <http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse/index.html> || os web <http://www.osweb.8m.com> || Stack Computers <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/koopman/www/stack_computers/index.html>
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || chaos <http://www.chaosdev.org> || os web <http://www.osweb.8m.com> || Stack Computers: the new wave <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/koopman/www/stack_computers/index.html>
12:30pm
* ElGato/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 47 min 51 secs
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<s_r> ElGato: have you considered .nu?
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
01:00pm
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-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason)
<s_r> Plundis: i'm reading chaos source code and have a question
<Plundis> s_r: oh?
<Plundis> you're lucky; I just happened to switch to this window.. :)
<s_r> 	jmp	word far [jmp_data] 		; dispatch the new task
<s_r> you have that
<Plundis> yes.
<s_r> in the task switcher
<s_r> 		iret
<Plundis> yes.
<s_r> then you have that
<s_r> if it jmps to the new task
<s_r> why does it need to iret?
<s_r> it wouldn't be in the interrupt handler anymore?
<Plundis> hmm.. I must check this out..
<Plundis> hold on
<Plundis> shit. doesn't CVS support symbolic links?
<Plundis> s_r: I know! when the system returns to the process next time, it will be in this location.
<Plundis> and to return to the real code of the process, we must do an IRET.
<Plundis> the task switcher run in the process' own task state.
<_QZ> uhh
02:40pm
<_QZ> no online source code?
<_QZ> "but we felt like better doing it early than late. "
<_QZ> a little grammar problem u might wanna fix on the download page
<Plundis> _QZ: what is the error ? (sorry, English is not my native language)
<eihrul> funny you should mention a grammatical error
<Plundis> _QZ: no, the latest source isn't available yet..
<Plundis> and CVS doesn't seem to support soft links.. :/
<_QZ> Plundis: no i meant u dont have the source available to browse online
<Plundis> _QZ: we have. check the bottom of the download page.
<Plundis> cvsweb.
<_QZ> eihrul: well its really hcf's job to point out errors
<_QZ> and what is mercury?
<abi> mercury is purely declarative logic programming language at http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/research/mercury/
<Plundis> _QZ: mercury is the development name of chaos 0.0.1
<_QZ> what is in it?
<_QZ> both kernel and servers?
<hcf> _QZ: not my "job"! i just do it occasionally as a favor
<Plundis> _QZ: yes..
<Plundis> _QZ: I repeat; what is the error? tell me so I can fix it..
<_QZ> Plundis: uhh remove 'better'
<_QZ> or like
<Plundis> oh.. I see.
<Plundis> that is valid in Swedish, you know. :)
<Plundis> but thanks anyway..
<hcf> or, s/doing/about doing/
<_QZ> well ya its valid here to if yer one of those ppl that uses like in front of every sentence
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<Plundis> :)
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup413.nni.com])
<hcf> _QZ: at least the spelling is ok, and not like atg's
<_QZ> hcf: hahah
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<_QZ> hcf: 4 year olds have better spelling/writting habits then alonzo does
<Plundis> I changed it to something else.. please check if it's better.
02:50pm
<_QZ> its better than what u had, i guess
<_QZ> what does test floppy do?
<Plundis> it's a floppy image with GRUB, a kernel and some servers.
<Plundis> it doesn't do very much currently..
<_QZ> for 98k it should do alot :)
<Plundis> _QZ: GRUB takes upp most of that, I think.
<Plundis> I mean, the kernel as well as the servers are compressed..
<_QZ> i would dump grub
<Plundis> _QZ: no way.
<Plundis> GRUB rules. it makes the coding so much easy to avoid having your own boot loader.
<_QZ> how big is yer kernel uncompressed
<eihrul> plus GRUB has an uber cool mini shell :)
<Plundis> I think it's about 40k or something.
<Plundis> yeah, GRUB is really great.
<_QZ> 40k!?!?!?!
* hcf/#tunes mumbles about bloat
<_QZ> ouch, what does it do?
<Plundis> _QZ: initialize the system.
<Plundis> set up paging, interrupts, exceptions.. whatever.
<hcf> cater weddings too?
<_QZ> my kernel is sitting at 9k + 3k setup and has a maximum limit of 16k
<Plundis> it was under 20k a long while.. dunno what happened.
<Plundis> _QZ: yeah, but what does it do?
<Plundis> _QZ: has it got ELF support? virtual memory? paging? exceptions handlers? interrupt support? system calls? whatever..
<_QZ> semaphores, multithreading, events, server interface, and object management
<Plundis> _QZ: is it written in assembly?
<_QZ> yes its written in asm
<Plundis> well.. you can kill me if you want to, but I would *never* write a kernel in pure asm.
<_QZ> exceptions and interrupts are handled with events
<Plundis> it just makes the source so much harder to manage.
<eihrul> qz: processes?
<_QZ> it uses a persistent object store so it doesnt need virtual memory
<Plundis> _QZ: I mean.. any lamer could understand our code. :)
<_QZ> it has paging
<Plundis> _QZ: what executable formats do you support?
<_QZ> brix doesnt run programs
<Plundis> _QZ: how does it work, then?
<_QZ> it runs methods on objects
<_QZ> it is explained on the web page
<Plundis> _QZ: sound's really weird..
<Plundis> but it's probably good for something. :)
<Plundis> I'm not critizising you here, I'm just saying that our stuff is good too.
<_QZ> but u dont have persitence
<_QZ> persistence
<Plundis> _QZ: explain.
<eihrul> could easily implement a persistence server
03:00pm
<eihrul> that's the whole point of a microkernel
<eihrul> the bells and whistles are implemented at the user level
<Plundis> eihrul: exactly.
<_QZ> well i have it in 9k
<eihrul> well you're cutting out on something
<_QZ> it would take yer 40k + more to add it
<eihrul> because in 9k you've left something major out
<eihrul> er, that was redundant of me
<_QZ> havent left anything out
<_QZ> my kernel does what it needs to do
<eihrul> and nothing more...
<Plundis> _QZ: but not what our kernel needs to do. :)
<_QZ> is yer uk better than the qnx uk?
<Plundis> it's as good.
<_QZ> Plundis: u use a classical uk that needs bloat to work
<Plundis> we've goot a realtime scheduler, for example.
<_QZ> isnt the qnx uk like 16k?
<eihrul> qz: your microkernel has a built in compiler no, that's not bloat?
<_QZ> openblt is 30k
<Plundis> _QZ: probably, but it's written in asm.
<_QZ> no i dont have a compiler built in, do u?
<Plundis> I haven't the time to write a microkerneln in asm..
<_QZ> 16k means it does everything faster and the kernel can be loaded into memory faster
<eihrul> qz: thought you had a scripting model in the kernel?
<_QZ> eihrul: above it
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<Plundis> _QZ: the question is, of course: is it worth it? your kernel isn't necessary faster than ours just because it's smaller.
<s_r> i'd write a kernel in asm
<_QZ> uhh, i would think it is faster
<s_r> the kernel has to have _no_ bloat
<s_r> but you might be able to achieve that with a C kernel too
<Plundis> s_r: our kernel isn't very bloated IMO.
<eihrul> but is your object model as faster as a normal executable program... that is the question :)
<_QZ> then there is yer message passing system
<s_r> it probably isn't
<_QZ> u force user code to waste cycles checking for messages
<s_r> but if i wrote it in C i'd make it bloated probably :)
<Plundis> s_r: but I agree that the kernel have to be well optimized.
<Plundis> _QZ: no.
<_QZ> i have eliminated that with brix
<eihrul> qz: not if it's syncrhonous
<s_r> QZ: what, do you put threads to sleep while they wait for a message?
<Plundis> _QZ: a process is woken up when it gets a message.
<_QZ> s_r: the thread doesnt exist until it gets a message
<Plundis> preferrably, you use a separate thread to get messages. that way, no bloat.
<_QZ> s_r: and it dies when it finishes the message
<eihrul> well doesn't allocating a thread every time a message is received come with enormous overhead?
<_QZ> eihrul: no
<s_r> i'd just put threads to sleep
<_QZ> eihrul: very tiny threads
<Plundis> _QZ: creating a new thread for every message is *definitely* bloat IMO. 
<_QZ> it also simplifies the entire programming process
<Plundis> but OTOH, it has advantages too.. it's a little tricky.
<s_r> hehe OS wars :)
<Plundis> s_r: yes! :-)
<Plundis> i love it! :)
<s_r> reminds me of #linux sometimes
03:10pm
<Plundis> s_r: I've never been there..
<Plundis> but they appear in #linux.se sometimes too.. :)
<Plundis> mostly BSD/Linux wars, though.. pretty boring.
<Plundis> I mean, it's the same junk. really.
<s_r> well if someone points out flaws in your OS, you can at least redesign it, you can't do that with Linux (at least you can't distribute your modified version)
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<eihrul> s_r: eh, why can't you do that?
<_QZ> yes u can
<eihrul> you just can't modify linux because it's bloaty :)
<Plundis> s_r: of course you can.
<eihrul> you'd likely go insane reading the spaghetti that lies within that source tree
<s_r> well scratch that last comment :)
<Plundis> s_r: ok..
<_QZ> s_r: u would have problems updating drivers in yer version
<Plundis> what do you guys think is best: to port drivers from Linux or FreeBSD?
<Plundis> or write them from scratch?
<s_r> get the manuals from the companies and write them yourself
<_QZ> Plundis: well for brix they have to be written from scratch
<Plundis> s_r: what if the manuals aren't available?
<eihrul> then use both
<s_r> Plundis: port them from VSTa
<javaks> s_r: yeah. but to get the manuals isn't that easy everytime..
<_QZ> Plundis: core uses ggi for graphics drivers so he just compiles ggi drivers without any porting
<Plundis> s_r: how much hardware does VSTa support?
<s_r> Plundis: port them from Linux :)
<Plundis> _QZ: is it that easy? cool.
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<_QZ> Plundis: for clementine it is
<s_r> err look at source from both OSes and then port a composite version
<Plundis> but I was more thinking of other hardware.. network cards, etc.
<_QZ> Plundis: and core has patched all the binutils for linux to support clementine modules
<s_r> QZ: so you still think your OS is better?
<Plundis> _QZ: we don't need to patch anything. the only thing we need to do is to create our own ld script. :)
<_QZ> u guys arent creating a new os at all
<_QZ> yer just making a new kernel to replace linux
<Plundis> _QZ: I think you should watch your mouth for a while.
<eihrul> no free kernel could replace linux at this point
<eihrul> too overhyped at the moment
<Plundis> you don't know enough about or project to judge that.
<s_r> QZ: yours is "revolutionary"?
<_QZ> s_r: yes :)
<Plundis> heck, we don't care to make it "revolutionary". we  just make it good.
<s_r> maybe you'll realize someday that it's YAUK
<Plundis> s_r: YAUK?
<eihrul> well... many real time OS's have most of those "revolutionary" characteristics
<Plundis> Yet Another Useless Kernel? :)
<eihrul> everything except the object parts
<_QZ> Plundis: can yer kernel be replaced without rebooting?
<s_r> Yet Another U Kernel
<Plundis> _QZ: no.
<Plundis> _QZ: but we've been thinking of that.
<Plundis> it would definitely be cool.
<_QZ> mine can
<eihrul> that's not because of your design
<_QZ> it is
<eihrul> :)
<eihrul> you could implement it with most any microkernel
<Plundis> _QZ: well, how do you do it then?
<_QZ> can u replace server code without restarting it
<_QZ> or user code 
<Plundis> eihrul: yes, definitely. I think it's doable with storm.
<Plundis> _QZ: yes, just edit the memory..
03:20pm
<s_r> QZ: but your OS isn't NoKernel
<_QZ> s_r: nokernel sucks
<Plundis> eihrul: but currently we're focusing on other stuff. like finishing the implementation of the RT-scheduler.
<s_r> Tunes will be more revolutionary than Brix
<s_r> brix might be fast
<s_r> but it won't be as diverse as Tunes
<hcf> s_r: who r to judge?
<eihrul> plundis: well i figure once i wake up enough i'll start digging around source code and seeing of what use i can be :)
<_QZ> hcf: he is yer god :)
<hcf> _QZ: thx i fergot
<s_r> actually, i shouldn't judge it
<s_r> you're right
<Plundis> eihrul: great.
<Plundis> eihrul: the code in the CVS seems a bit broken, though.. the symbolic links disappeared.
<hcf> s_r: of course im right
<_QZ> well i must be go code now, i told core i would swap binaries with him in a week
<_QZ> s/be//
<Plundis> swap binaries? isn't your kernel free?
<_QZ> Plundis: yes
<_QZ> Plundis: but not open source just yet
<hcf> free bin
<Plundis> _QZ: good for you. otherwise this could have get *really* nasty.. :)
<hcf> _QZ: at least core has a real excuse
<_QZ> Plundis: it has to be 100% perfect before it goes open source
<Plundis> _QZ: why not, btw?
<Plundis> _QZ: get real.
<Plundis> no kernel is ever 100% perfect.
<_QZ> well im a perfectionist
<Plundis> but maybe that's a feature? ;)
<Plundis> to avoid having to release code..
<_QZ> i never let anyone see my work until its beyond finished
<Plundis> _QZ: that's silly.
<Plundis> if I let other people see my work, they might help me finish it.
<Plundis> is brix witten by you alone?
<_QZ> u can sya what u want but u still aint getting it :)
<_QZ> i do not want help
<Plundis> _QZ: np.. I don't want it. :P
<Plundis> I've got more than enough work already.. believe me.
<Plundis> I just think your attitude sucks. :)
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> i consider help on a project as contamination
<_QZ> plus i know my kernel inside and out
<Plundis> chaos has been a 2/3-man project since the beginning.
<Plundis> so it's quite different in that aspect.
<_QZ> 2/3rds of a man? :)
<eihrul> qz: well for 9k, no doubt anyone could :)
<Plundis> 2 to 3, depending on the time.
<_QZ> brix has been a full man project
<Plundis> _QZ: a drunken man? ;)
<Plundis> (full = drunken in Swedish)
<_QZ> kyss mig i hacken
<Plundis> :D
<javaks> haha. =)
<_QZ> :)
<Plundis> I'd love to.
<Plundis> =)
<Plundis> kan du någon annan senska?
<Plundis> svenska.
<Plundis> I guess not.. :)
<_QZ> nope
03:30pm
<Plundis> cool anyway..
<Plundis> have you got Swedish relatives or something?
<_QZ> i know a girl
* Plundis/#tunes knows a lot of girls. =)
<_QZ> i know a girl that is swedish
<Plundis> yeah, I understood.. I just made fun of you. :)
<Plundis> _QZ: what's her name?
<_QZ> she taught me alot more but that was a few years ago and...
<Plundis> ok.
<_QZ> lena
<Plundis> my sister is called Lena. :)
<_QZ> she lives in the US
<Plundis> cool.
<_QZ> anyway im going
<Plundis> _QZ: cu.. nice talking to you, even though you're weird. :)
<_QZ> hah
<_QZ> have u talked to fare about chaos?
<Plundis> _QZ: fare?
<abi> fare is probably sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree
<Plundis> oh..
<_QZ> Plundis: if u didnt like talking to me than stay away from fare
<Plundis> I don't think so.
<Plundis> =)
<_QZ> fare = uk basher
<Plundis> I liked talking to you, but you're a little too extreme for my taste..
<_QZ> and bash he will do
03:40pm
<s_r> QZ: why do you hate nokernel?
<_QZ> i dont hate it, i said it sucks
<s_r> why does it suck?
<_QZ> just answer me a few questions. 1) how do modules communicate?
<s_r> in a nokernel?
<_QZ> ya
<s_r> well i suppose each process has a module that writes to other processes' address spaces ( or shared memory for that matter which is prepared when the process is made)
<s_r> and then controls the process with accordance to rules set down by the trusted compiler
<s_r> well not really controls it
<s_r> but wakes it up
<s_r> if it's waiting
<_QZ> how does that module know where the other process spaces are?
04:00pm
<s_r> each process is descended from another process and it informs it's parent
<s_r> about it's child
<s_r> err its
<s_r> so each process knows about the other processes
<_QZ> what is the first process to start?
<s_r> any process
<s_r> hmm i'm not too clear about this though
<s_r> have you talked to core about this?
<_QZ> yes
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<_QZ> u do have a kernel in nokernel, u just call it something else
<ELGato> amen qz
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<s_r> no it's more like having a kernel in each process
<s_r> there is no central kernel
<s_r> each process has objects that function as the parts that a kernel would need
<_QZ> and nokernel has the same user-supervisor overhead that uk and monolith have
<eihrul> memory protection is overhead?
<ELGato> ring switching
<eihrul> how is it any different than context switching overhead with threads?
<ELGato> just use software protection
<eihrul> why, when you have hardware protection? :)
<s_r> no it doesn't have the same user supervisor overhead!
<ELGato> hardware protection has overhead
<_QZ> s_r: why did core say it did then?
<s_r> ElGato: how would u use software protection?
<s_r> QZ: i don't know, i never heard core say that
<ELGato> beats the hell out of me
<_QZ> s_r: tunes is software protection
<ELGato> im just talking about buzzwords i hear :)
<s_r> use a compiler to verify a program
<s_r> a trusted compiler
<s_r> and i would have no "superuser"
<ELGato> oh
<s_r> fare wants a superuser
<ELGato> i thought you meant in the os
<s_r> i don't want all power delegated to one user
<_QZ> s_r: whatever
<s_r> QZ: i admit, you have good ideas.
<_QZ> s_r: if i won the machine and i let others have access to it, i damn well want to be the friggin superuser
<_QZ> s/won/own/
<s_r> QZ: i don't know how Brix will stand in relation to other OSes
<s_r> QZ: well you can have control over the multiple users that control the machine
<s_r> i guess time will tell
<ELGato> qz: when will the latest kernel image be compiled?
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<_QZ> ELGato: well i told core i would trade binaries with him in a week
<s_r> hcf was right
<s_r> QZ: isn't core releasing clementine source code soon?
<_QZ> s_r: fall
<s_r> is that about when you'll release yours :)
<_QZ> s_r: never
<s_r> somehow i knew he'd say that to me
<s_r> oh well
04:10pm
<_QZ> s_r: give me $1.5 million and the source is all yers
<s_r> sure!
<s_r> do you want that wired to your bank account?
<_QZ> no i would like it in pennies
<_QZ> cept for the income tax part of it
<s_r> QZ did you get the money from treeloot?
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<_ruiner_> hmm......
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04:20pm
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<Plundis> darn, why did eihrul go away?
<ELGato> >=(
<Plundis> I needed to talk to him..
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04:30pm
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<ELGato> anyone here know how to use retro
<ELGato> i got it booted up but i don't what the hell to do with it
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05:50pm
<ELGato> logout
<ELGato> er
<ELGato> heh im still in irc
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06:00pm
<AlonzoTG> om
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06:20pm
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<_QZ> Crimson: yer floppy image dont boot
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (VICTORY IS WITHIN MY GRASP (some dum game))
06:50pm
<s_r> it does
<s_r> i just rawrote it
<s_r> and booted it on my 486
07:00pm
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<s_r> QZ: can i ask you a question about OS design i asked plundis before?
07:10pm
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<ElGato> ahoy
* ElGato/#tunes kicks QZ
<ElGato> j00 awake?
08:20pm
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<ElGato> !!!
<ElGato> Mr_Wrong
<ElGato> you're wrong
<ElGato> did you know that?
08:30pm
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<ElGato> hey
<abi> bonjour, ElGato
<ElGato> greetings s_r
* s_r/#tunes is listening to White Town - Your Woman
<ElGato> well unfortunealy i must be leaving
<ElGato> hasta la vista
<s_r> how's work on teh compiler?
<_ruiner_> later
<s_r> _ruiner_: what are you working on?
<ElGato> i gotta refresh myself on dynamic memory allocation :\
<ElGato> but the scanner is almost done
* ElGato/#tunes is slow
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08:40pm
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<ElGato> anyone her know anything about using retro?
<_QZ> hmm
<ElGato> i got her running on my 486 but i don't know what the hell to do
<_QZ> beso pulse says it uses 60% cpu while i am downloading a file from my lan
<ElGato> the only forth word i know is cr
<_QZ> but linux cpu meter says im using like 1% cpu to send that file
<_QZ> type: 2 2 + .
<_QZ> or: 2 2 + cr . cr
* ElGato/#tunes remembers rpn
<_QZ> . = print
<ElGato> yeah 
<_QZ> + will add the 2 numbers on the stack and push teh value
<_QZ> > will pop the top value and display it
<_QZ> er, . will
<ElGato> i don't know how to look at files or directories an d crap in retro though
<ElGato> do you?
<_QZ> i dont think tcn has that
<ElGato> :(
<ElGato> "very interactive"
<_QZ> tcn should really publish specs on what his forth can do
<ElGato> atleast you're honest about your image
<_QZ> retro is interactive
<ElGato> you're missing that key adverb
<ElGato> 'very'
09:50pm
<_QZ> u have to remember that retro is a bootstrapped forth
<ElGato> i don't know if i necessarily agree will the idea of a "forth os"
<ElGato> but tcn did say he has a cruse test editor done
<ElGato> i think he's just working on drivers and crap right now
<_QZ> cruse?
<ElGato> crude rather
<ElGato> my terminal is really lagged
<ElGato> i have to trust my untrusty toucvh typping
<_QZ> well for what retro is suppose to do it does it well enuf
<_QZ> it is not an os
<ElGato> yeah it is
<_QZ> no
<ElGato> it's just a different os
<_QZ> forth was designed to run as the only thing on a machine
<_QZ> it wasnt called an os
<_QZ> its a bootstrapped language
<_QZ> tunes will also be a bootstrapped language
<_QZ> that is why they dont call it an os
<ElGato> no tunes is called an os/language project
<_QZ> The TUNES Project for a Reflective Computing System
<_QZ> computing system or environment
<ElGato> im gonna make an ascii tunes logo
<ElGato> it's about damn time
<_QZ> retro and tunes must have the language present to run the programs
<_QZ> with brix i chose to put the language on top of a uk so i could remove the language
<_QZ> but brix is closely tied to its language
<ElGato> isn't it's language c++?
<_QZ> it can be removed but u lose alot of flexibility
<_QZ> isnt what c++
<ElGato> BRiX's language
<_QZ> NO!
<ElGato> !!!
<ElGato> c?
10:00pm
<_QZ> damn, linux to linux i can acheive 1.1MBps but beos to linux only gets 820KBps
<ElGato> what is BRiX's language?
<_QZ> its new
<ElGato> i was not aware of this
<_QZ> the brix language is not ascii text so i am able to do stuff u cant do with ascii text
<_QZ> u start out by defining a new object or pick an existing object type. then u define the api for the method and begin writing code. the system will check every name u type and verify its type, api, etc and it will tell u if soemthing is wrong
<ElGato> geez if people are fed up with this party or that party or whatever why don't they get it and become non-partisan
<_QZ> it also parses everything into bytecode
<ElGato> i fear people will never learn
<_QZ> and it begins running tests 
<ElGato> oh
<ElGato> 0xc001
<_QZ> so by the time u finish writing, it will be mostly debugged
<_QZ> then it will put it thru more tests
<ElGato> qz: do you take programming classes in school?
<_QZ> and it adds optimizations hints to the bytecode and when that bytecode gets to the target machine it can be compiled to machine code. and the target machine can match data it collects on the target system to the hints and optimize it to the system
<_QZ> i dont goto scholl
<_QZ> school
<ElGato> oh?
<_QZ> graduated 
<ElGato> at 16?
<_QZ> ya
<ElGato> :\
10:10pm
<ElGato> another child prodigy
<_QZ> did u try chaos?
<ElGato> i've never even been to the web page
<_QZ> go
<_QZ> they have an interactive binary
<ElGato> ok
<ElGato> too late
<ElGato> bye
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10:20pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0721
IRC log ended Wed Jul 21 00:00:00 1999