IRC log started Thu Jul  8 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0708
12:10am
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
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<hcf> hoy smkl
<smkl> hello
09:00am
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<hcf> hoy binEng
<binEng> gakuk :)
10:20am
<Fare> kjhmkjg
<binEng> uh
<hcf> for abi, a factoid is: key (is|are) data, current cfg: maxKeySize=30 maxDataSize=200, should this change?/
<binEng> maxDataSize should be higher :)
<hcf> how much higher?
<binEng> well, some 30-40% maybe
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<Fare> 256!
10:30am
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<tmf> hi
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<hcf> whats <k!14> mean?
<eStormy> irc script?
<hcf> perhaps
10:40am
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!koontz.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT crichton.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
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-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Some problems with timestamps, we should be through with the split and join thing momentarily.
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] That should do it.  Thanks again for your patience!
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<Kaufmann> okay, how much is a nickel worth?
<smkl> hmm $0.25 ?
<eStormy> 5 cents
<Kaufmann> 5 or 25?
<eStormy> 5...25 is a quarter
<Kaufmann> Okie.
<eStormy> am i the only american in here?
<smkl> yes
<Kaufmann> What is the range of US coin values?
<eStormy> well, i better behave then, i'm representing my country
<eStormy> a penny is 1 cent, nickel is 5, quarter is 25, half-dollar (rare) is 50
<Kaufmann> Thankee.
<Kaufmann> Bye now.
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. I'm the newest member of the KICK-BAN G|R campaign!)
<_ruiner_> I'm american
<_ruiner_> the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
11:20am
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* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 14 hrs 34 min 25 secs
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<hcf> Tril: for abi, a factoid is data=key( is | are )value, current cfg: maxKeySize=30 maxDataSize=200, maxDataSize=length of key plus ( is | are ) plus value, should these change?
11:30am
<Tril> oh i don't care
<Tril> abi should have a psql interface
<Tril> abi: select * from languages where author = "water";
<hcf> psql?
<abi> i haven't a clue, tril
<Tril> psql is the command-line interface to postgresql
<hcf> talk to oznoid about such, i just work w/ what i got
<hcf> oh well, hmm, maybe
<hcf> but wouldnt the output not fit well into an irc msg?
<Tril> it would be a flood, yeah, but chan/nickserv already do that
<Tril> it would work WELL if abi established a dcc chat with the user for it
11:40am
<hcf> dcc stills seems unsupported
<Tril> it would need to authenticate tunes members, though
<hcf> why?
<hcf> could use abi's pre-existing user flags routine
<hcf> or do u mean auth w/ psql?
<Tril> no, id rather auth before getting into psql. the db should be accessible only to tunes member
<hcf> is psql and the tunes db ready to be used?
<Tril> no
<Tril> :)
11:50am
<hcf> remind when it is and see what i can do
12:00pm
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<Fare> Gakuk!
<smkl> hello
<Fare> Tril: I couldn't identify your tune. Sounds like late 19th century ballet music
12:30pm
<Fare> Tril: johnl says your gclist archive is nice.
12:40pm
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<Tril> ok
<Fare> ko
* Tril/#TUNES downloads newly compiled fetchmail-ssl to test it
<Fare> fetchmail-ssl?
<Fare> is there a pop-ssl on bespin?
<Tril> there is an imap-ssl on bespin now. pop-ssl could be easily installed
<Fare> is that the same port?
<Tril> port 993/simap
<Tril> used by netscape, outlook
* Fare/#Tunes wonders how to convince those dumb irresponsible sysadm at cnet.francetelecom.fr to open outgoing ports...
<Tril> ok, fetchmail-ssl works. cool
<Tril> i had to do some string replacement to get it to compile.  Symbol conflicts. Two headers defined "_"!!!
<Fare> great!
<Tril> do you want the binary?
01:10pm
<Tril> or my lynx-ssl binary? I should put them on my web page.
<Fare> no thanks, just stick it in /usr/local
<Tril> ok
<Fare> I took lynx-ssl from debian 2.2
<Fare> oh, about /usr/local, I recommend use of stow
<Tril> abi: stow?
<abi> i haven't a clue, tril
<Tril> i think i read the desc of that in dselect. looked too complex
<Tril> no, I was right the first time , it looked too ugly
<Tril> uck
<Fare> stow works great
<Fare> you just stick stuff in /usr/local/stow/each_group_of_stuff_in_whatever_package_name_you_want
<Fare> then you run restow () { ( cd /usr/local/stow && stow -R * ) }
<Tril> what's it got to do with debian packages?
<Tril> how do you tell where the link goes to?
<Tril> bin, lib, include, sbin
<Tril> or (ick!) etc
<Fare> stow's got to do with non-debian packages
<Fare> you just put stuff down stow/foo/
<Fare> and it gets linked from /usr/local/
<Fare> for instance, stow/lynx-ssl/bin/lynx-ssl
<Fare> stow/lynx-ssl/bin/lib/lynx.cfg
01:20pm
<Fare> stow/lynx-ssl/doc/
<Fare> actually, you make install PREFIX=/usr/local/stow/lynx-ssl/
<Tril> make it into a fs and I'll take it
<Tril> stowfs
<Fare> stowfs???
<Tril> not too serious.  hierarchies suck
01:30pm
<Fare> do you want me to help put things under stow?
01:40pm
<Tril> Why do I need stow when most things are just single files?
<Tril> Everything in /usr/local/ either has its own dir /usr/local/dir/, or is a single file in /usr/local/bin, or is a single dir under /usr/local/lib, or a single file in /usr/local/sbin.  I don't want to take /usr/local/ssl/(lib,bin,include) for example and symlink to it from /usr/local/(bin,lib,include), that just gets confusing and isn't really needed
<Tril> really there is no organization for /usr/local, and stow won't help make one
<Tril> or, it is already organized just fine
01:50pm
<Tril> are there is hardly enough stuff there to warrant a huge effort at organizing it
02:00pm
<Fare> Tril: because you want such things as man pages
<Fare> and documentation
<Fare> and tracing of what goes where
<Fare> especially when there are more than one administrator
<Fare> also it allows easier copying and sharing of programs between computers
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02:10pm
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<s_r> hey tcn
<tcn> hey, how are ya?
<s_r> do you know anything about OpenBLT?
<tcn> sure, I use that every day ;)
<tcn> umm
<tcn> I mean
<tcn> you need some bread, some bacon..
<tcn> mayo..
<s_r> i wonder how far retro has progressed
<tcn> well, I rearranged it to have a completely forth-based kernel, and it's running again.
<tcn> things were getting redundant when I had some non-forth parts
<Fare> tcn!!!
<Fare> tcn: are you done w/ IDE r/w ?
<tcn> hola, fare
<tcn> Fare: no, I just got done moving!
<Fare> Tril: around?
<Fare> tcn: oh, great!
<Fare> you moved in to NY?
<s_r> tcn when do you think Retro will be at the stage Linux is at?
<Fare> Tril: shall I announce things to tunes-announce or to tunes?
<tcn> no I just moved to an apartment
<Fare> sr: silly question
<Fare> the apartment is in NY?
<tcn> sr: no idea
<Fare> where were you moving from, and where to?
<tcn> Fare: yeah, NY state
<Fare> are you going to university there? or having a job?
<Fare> tell me if I'm indiscreet
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<tcn> oh I've got a job
<tcn> hehe, I've got a bunch of job notices from the college placement office.. they all suck :)
<tcn> compared to the one I got
02:40pm
<Fare> what job is yours?
<Fare> is it _free_ software?
<tcn> is what free?
<Fare> that you'll be doing.
<Fare> Or is it unrelated to software?
<tcn> I don't program much
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<tcn> a little SQL, VB, autolisp, etc..
<Fare> tcn: what's your job about?
<Fare> are you stopping your academic cursus?
<tcn> oh, i'm working for a consulting firm.. we work for other companies :)
<Fare> hum. When a i386 gets a page fault, is it given a precise pointer, or just the page's address?
<Fare> and what if the accessed thing spans *two* pages?
<Fare> consult about what?
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<tcn> If I recall correctly, it tells you both the address that faulted, and the instruction that caused it
<tcn> Fare: see dandr.com
02:50pm
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<tcn> hehe, basically we do what big companies are too bloated to do
<tcn> god, that freeos page is ugly
<Fare> forget freeos
<abi> Fare: I forgot freeos
<eStormy> freeos?
<Fare> it's lame
<eStormy> bah, fare beat me to it
<Fare> abi: not you, stupid!
<Fare> is there a way to recover forgotten factoids?
<Fare> not that freeos deserves more than forgetfulness
<tcn> www.freeos.grid9.net
<s_r> fare what do you hate about freeos?
* eStormy/#tunes emails his competitor in town to see how much he charges.
<tcn> freeos is closed-source
03:00pm
<tcn> what an oxymoron
<Fare> even their original webmaster wants to have nothing to do with them!
<Fare> let's forget them.
<Fare> s_r: I posted a flame on comp.os.misc
<Fare> (crossposted to review@, I think)
<s_r> Fare which free open-source OS project shows most promise?
* eStormy/#tunes wonders if you have to have source to qualify as open source.
* tcn/#tunes chuckles
<Fare> s_r: Linux
<tcn> Linux or *BSD
<Fare> eCos
<Fare> and of course, TUNES :)
<Fare> ahem. I _must_ put TUNES forward, after all!
<Fare> eS: we kind of have retro, and we have a few stupid files.
<tcn> what ever happened to clementine?
03:10pm
<Fare> tcn: still not GPLed.
<Fare> tcn: and not often checked in by core
<Fare> send gripes to core@suntech.fr :)
<tcn> are you saying his boss won't relinquish the copyright?
03:20pm
<Fare> he's making things take longer.
<tcn> who is?
03:30pm
<tcn> what's better, freebsd or netbsd?
<s_r> netbsd?
<s_r> freebsd?
<abi> hmmm... freebsd is pretty stable... We replaced a crappy linux box with FreeBSD for the mail server
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> I wonder who said that
<s_r> tcn are you planning to switch to bsd?
<s_r> from Linux?
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<tcn> no, but I want to play with it more.
03:40pm
<s_r> tcn wouldn't unix OSes be boring without source code?
<tcn> hehe, yeah
<tcn> like NT
<s_r> BeOS
<Fare> the boss
<Fare> s_r: it has been, for twenty years!
<s_r> huh?
<Fare> proprietary unices don't come with source, or only in very restricted ways.
<s_r> what is "it"  and what has "it" been
<Fare> and proprietary unices ARE boring
<Fare> and for twenty years, all unices were proprietary
<Fare> it = UNIX(tm)
<tcn> linux and bsd are pretty boring too
<s_r> tcn, how so? what isn't boring?
<tcn> oh yeah :)
03:50pm
<Fare> retro isn't boring :)
* Fare/#Tunes is away
<tcn>  /who #freebsd
<tcn> hmm, nobody there
<s_r> tcn you'll ilke bsd
<s_r> like
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04:00pm
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<tcn> I *have* used bsd
<s_r> an OS can be appreciated best at the programmer's level
<tcn> oh you think bsd has a better interface?
<tcn> well it seems to have a better fs
<tcn> anyway, freebsd is what i'd use for a business server.. but maybe linux for workstations
<tcn> linux is supported better
<s_r> tcn i have an idea for an automatic porting program
<s_r> tcn do you think it would be possible to convert a DOS program to work in Linux?
<s_r> like change the memory references, the interrupt calls to system calls
<s_r> based on the knowledge of DOS interrupts and lib calls
<tcn> it all depends on how closely the program is tied to DOS
<s_r> and change known memory references to possibly system calls (like references to A000:0000 to X calls)
04:10pm
<tcn> oh, X is a pain
<tcn> try using GGI
<tcn> another tough thing is timing.. it's pretty inaccurate in a multitasking OS
<tcn> also Unix really limits what you can do with interrupts
<s_r> maybe something powerful can be built into the kernel
<eStormy> freebsd is more polished, professional, and unified.  but linux has more neat toys to play with.
<tcn> that's fine when you're writing most of your software
* eStormy/#tunes is about 5 minutes behind the conversation.  (c:
<tcn> you know what's a real pain... linux has a hard time with UFS
<tcn> (but bsd handles ext2fs, no problem)
<s_r> what fs does retro use?
<s_r> what fs do you plan it to use?
<tcn> oh
04:20pm
<tcn> distributed persistent store
<tcn> it's more like RAM than an fs
<s_r> how does a persistent store work?
<tcn> but that's all on paper right now
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
<tcn> when you create a program (or data), it starts in RAM, and gets saved to disk ASAP.  Data gets shuffled around between disk and RAM as needed.. basically it's a cache system
<tcn> and it's distributed.. it can use all the disks, rams, tapes, etc, you give it.
<s_r> what do you mean by "create" a program?
<s_r> when you first compile it? when you first load it from disk?
<tcn> it doesn't really matter
<tcn> but if you run a program and it's not in RAM, it gets loaded (actually, only pages you actually access need to be loaded)
<s_r> tcn: OS/2 rules
>>> s_r [sr@phila-dialup117.nni.com] requested VERSION  from #tunes
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<tcn> haha
<s_r> hmm linux is popular
<s_r> i wish i had OS/2
<eStormy> i'd be in freebsd twer it not for voice recognitio
<tcn> too bad it's dead
<eStormy> n
<s_r> estormy: you have RSI
<s_r> ?
<tcn> hey we're on the bleeding edge, estormy :)
<eStormy> yes
04:30pm
<s_r> how did you get carpal tunnel syndrome?
<tcn> I get that from using mice
<tcn> especially if I have to click-drag-release a lot
<s_r> tcn: have you used Plan 9?
<tcn> nope
<tcn> why?
<s_r> it's cool
<tcn> what makes it cool?
<s_r> the GUI is neat
<s_r> i suppose it's well designed
<s_r> the programmers at Bell Labs are good
04:40pm
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<tcn> i'm gonna see how netbsd is
<s_r> openbsd is an offshoot of netbsd
<s_r> openbsd?
<abi> somebody said openbsd was an offshoot of the NetBSD project (www.openbsd.org)
<tcn> ok I'll look at that too
<s_r> tcn have you considered BeOS?
05:00pm
<tcn> hmm.. openbsd has crypto integrated into it..
<tcn> isn't beos proprietary?
<s_r> yes
<tcn> you know, windows is flashy too
<tcn> i'm no sucker
<s_r> heh
05:10pm
<tcn> hmm
<tcn> maybe freebsd is best
<s_r> tcn: no, linux
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<tcn> hey qz
<tcn> which bsd's have you used?
<s_r> qz: have you resumed work on BRiX or is the project still dead?
05:20pm
<_QZ> still dead
<tcn> he wanted to do games
<tcn> heh
<_QZ> the only bsd i use is on shell.aros.net and its freebsd
<_QZ> FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE
<tcn> how's work?
<_QZ> crap, my friend went down to pick me up 2 celeron 366's but they ran out
<_QZ> i was looking forward to running linux on dual 567's tonight :(
<_QZ> hows work on what?
<tcn> actually I was wondering what you do at work
<_QZ> not much
<tcn> heh
<tcn> you must be a computer administrator
05:30pm
<_QZ> we spent the last 2 days calling every place on pricewatch looking for 300A's
<_QZ> for personal use not work related
<_QZ> nope i dont administer any computers
<_QZ> well sorta
<_QZ> we have a company that handles NT on our machines but they dont know anything about NT or computers
<_QZ> if something is wrong and we need the machine now then we fix it instead of letting them look at it for a week
<_QZ> otherwise we let them look at it for a week and then tell em whats wrong with it
<_QZ> next week we're gonna install beos on one of them and set it for the win98 look and then call them and tell em we cant get our programs to work
<tcn> haha
<_QZ> they should keep em busy for weeks
<_QZ> s/they/that/
<tcn> we don't have anyone like that.. just some people who know how to run 'em
<_QZ> but we pay em $500/mo even if we dont have problems so why not make em work each month
<tcn> they place I worked before I went to college, they didn't let non-admins do *anything*
<_QZ> they have to let us handle it cuz those morons that are SUPPOSE to handle it cant
<tcn> the first 2-3 weeks my computer never crashed, so I thought they had win9x set up real good there.. but lately it's been acting like you'd expect
05:40pm
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<_QZ> we burned up a couple p2's and monitors and a week after i told them it was a room temperature problem they had it down to around 30 degrees F near the machines
<s_r> qz why would anyone put computers in such temperatures?
<tcn> during my interview someone said their A/C died last summer and everyone wore shorts and t-shirts to work... and the computers overheated .. hehe
<_QZ> its ok for an employee to freeze rather than have a $700 cpu burn up
<tcn> 70 degrees should be fine
<_QZ> ya but they like to enclose them
<_QZ> put the computer in a desk
<s_r> qz do you miss BRiX?
<_QZ> so there is no air around the case so the fan doesnt do jack
<_QZ> s_r: no
<_QZ> and the monitors are hanging and enclosed 
<_QZ> so air cant get into them either
<tcn> haha
<_QZ> so the room temp must be way below normal
05:50pm
<_QZ> that was their solution
<_QZ> cuz they are the intelligent ones
<tcn> if they had any sense they'd leave the computers out in the open where they can access the back
<_QZ> we need deskspace
<_QZ> brb, food
<s_r> qz have you tried bleem?
<_QZ> bleem?
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z)
<s_r> psx emu for PC
<_QZ> no
<tcn> psx?
06:00pm
<_QZ> i have psx so i dont need emu
<_QZ> playstation
<tcn> can pc's read ps cd's?
<_QZ> ya
<tcn> a guy at work was wondering
<_QZ> and if u get a $10 chip for yer psx it can read burned psx cd's
<tcn> oh, I get it
<tcn> a chip that doesn't check for the black stuff? :)
<_QZ> haha, no
<_QZ> burned cd's use multisession or some crap
<_QZ> old pc cdroms like 4 and 6x cant read burned cd's
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<water> hi all
<_QZ> the chip upgrades the psx so it can read that format
<tcn> hey brian
<_QZ> it just voids yer warranty cuz i think the chip has to be soldered in
<s_r> qz is a gamer
<_QZ> heh
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (not here) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<_QZ> ofcourse, thats why i have defiant. a dedicated game machine :)
<water> yep. i have friends with that chip
<s_r> qz BeOS is made for games... now if only developers would support it
<_QZ> be is marketing beos as a media os and not a game os
<tcn> i think we should go back to giving games full control of the computer, you know, where the game is the os
<tcn> i mean, there is no os
<s_r> QZ get a job at Be :)
06:10pm
<s_r> qz beos?
<abi> qz beos is made for games... now if only developers would support it
<s_r> hahahha
<hcf> its not funny
<tcn> he's a kid
06:20pm
<_QZ> YES
<_QZ> i have dual celeron 366's clocked at 567mhz sitting here
* water/#tunes waits for the ping timeout for _QZ. :)
<water> just kidding
<water> i know about celeron over-clocking
<_QZ> its on defiant
<_QZ> but will be in this machine later tonight
06:30pm
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250096.clarityconnect.net])
<eStormy> hmm...my competitor charges $25 an hour for on-site service...less than i was hoping.
<water> competitor in what?
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250094.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<eStormy> on-site computer service
<eStormy> i'm starting a business doing that
<water> "computer service"?
<water> = pc ts&r?
06:50pm
<eStormy> fixing windows, installing hardware, troubleshooting, etc
<water> bleh
<eStormy> yes, bleh, i don't look forward to it
<eStormy> but i want money
<water> i understand
<eStormy> and it's about the only thing i can do that doesn't require working for someone else and for which i can afford the startup costs
<s_r> stormy, become a shoe salesman
<eStormy> i'd reaaly rather sell hardware mail-order, but i'd need thousands
<water> what about selling programming services?
<eStormy> i can't type enough cause of RSI
<eStormy> i've turned down 2 programming jobs cause of it  )c:
* water/#tunes thinks the real problem is about progamming languages
<water> rsi sounds like a symptom
<eStormy> the language i'm designing will be very easy to type and dictate, that's a high priority
<eStormy> dictating c would be miserable
<water> indeed
<eStormy> i only have an smp p133, vr is too slow anyway
<eStormy> which is why i'm starting a business, so i can buy a new monster machine
<tcn> my advice: rm bitchx
<eStormy> i fail to see what that would correct
<tcn> so you'll have 60-80 hours a week to run your business ;)
* eStormy/#tunes will close the business before he works 80 hours a week.
<eStormy> well, i'd push all the work to an employee
<tcn> it'll take  a lot starting out, unless you have money to burn for awhile
<eStormy> i'm only gonna have a classified ad to start with, i don't expect much business for a  few months
<tcn> how'd you get rsi?
<eStormy> mudding
<tcn> hahahahahaahhahaha rofl
07:00pm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-172.tscnet.net])
<tcn> doesn't it go away after awhile?
<eStormy> maybe if i didn't type it all for a few months
<eStormy> but it'd probably come bac
<eStormy> k
<tcn> you get operated on or something?
<eStormy> no, i quit typing before it gets that bad
<tcn> which hand gets it worse?
<s_r> tcn you worried that you will get RSI?
<tcn> nope
<eStormy> my right cause of the mouse
<tcn> when I feel it coming on I take it easy
<tcn> right hand.. just what I thought :)
<tcn> don't use it
<eStormy> netscape doesn't work without it
<tcn> lynx!!
<_QZ> i cant believe he lied to me about the 366's being out of stock
<eStormy> lynx takes more typing effort than netscape could ever dream of
<eStormy> much easier to click a button than to down-arrow 17 timse
<tcn> yeah but it's the mouse that kills your hand
<s_r> QZ have you tried BeOS yet?
<_QZ> s_r: yes i have beos
<eStormy> someone send me an old cd and i'll try it
<tcn> yeah I've seen some pages with too many links
<s_r> QZ do you like it more than Linux?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> beos is not ready for prime time
<s_r> qz is just going to switch everything to Windows 2000 :)
<_QZ> it can compete with win98 but not with linux
<s_r> what's wrong with BeOS right now?
<_QZ> u cant change window colors in beos
<_QZ> u can change menu color but not window color
<_QZ> and i was told that previous version allowed u to change window color but Be removed support
<_QZ> sounds like Be just dont want u to change their colors
<eStormy> i read it's not yet implemented
<s_r> is that all?
<_QZ> it doesnt have sound events
<eStormy> boy those are annoying  (c;
<_QZ> it doenst have window shading
<eStormy> what's that
<_QZ> no window look can compare to the shinymetal in E
<s_r> qz what theme name?
<_QZ> window shading is where the window can scroll up into the titlebar like shades on yer home windows
* s_r/#tunes goes to e.themes.org
<eStormy> i'ill run e when i get a new machine
<_QZ> s_r: shinymetal
<eStormy> _QZ: okay, that's what i thought, but windows doesn't have it either
<tcn> you should get an E machine
<_QZ> E is gonna scream on my new dual 567mhz celeries
<eStormy> my m-i-l just got an emachine, i was very impressed with i
<eStormy> it
<tcn> we have a couple at work
<eStormy> for $399 it blows away my machine
<s_r> e machine?
<eStormy> cept only 32 m ram
<_QZ> eStormy: right thats why i said beos can compete with windows cuz they both suck UI-wise
<tcn> sr: a company that sells cheap-ass computers
07:10pm
<s_r> qz isn't BeOS fast though?
<s_r> and well designed?
<_QZ> oh yes beos screams
<eStormy> 300mhz cyrix, 32m ram, 2g hard drive, 56k modem, 24x cdrom, keyboard, mouse, $399 after rebate
<eStormy> monitor is all taht is missing
<tcn> hehe
<eStormy> 3d sound, 4mb agp video.  (most everything built onto the mb)
<eStormy> i opened the case....it's EMPTY
<tcn> someone i know bought a monitor i've never heard of, sent it back already
<tcn> cheap but crappy
<_QZ> 180fps on chart fullscreen with 100% star density and comets
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-75.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> was the modem a separate card?
<eStormy> yes, the only card
<eStormy> 56k lucent winmodem
<tcn> paper-thin?
<eStormy> about the size of my palm
<tcn> hehe
<eStormy> only shorter
<tcn> well, it's getting late.. gotta take off
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<s_r> qz is BeOS faster than Linux?
* water/#tunes thinks so
<eStormy> faster in a different way would be my guess
<eStormy> less of a server, more of a personal machine
<s_r> i bet QZ would love to see BeOS source
<_QZ> water is right
<_QZ> everything in beos is naturally multithreaded so everything runs faster
<_QZ> but linux is faster as a server
<eStormy> and freebsd is even faster as a server
<water> with the right support (probably the open kind), beos could probably do better
<s_r> if beos was open source
<s_r> i'd never use anything else
<water> _if_
<s_r> qz you could just get a job at Be and pirate the source code on #tunes :)
<_QZ> heh
<water> i wonder if the beos programming paradigm could be transformed into a programming language?
* eStormy/#tunes wants to start one of those 1-watt radio stations and play only free mp3s
07:20pm
<eStormy> or 100 watt, whatever the legal limit is without a license
<_QZ> 1/4 mile
<eStormy> yup...i live in the center of a tiny town
<s_r> water: like a language that stresses multithreading?
<_QZ> everyone lives within a 1/4mile from u?
<_QZ> that not a tiny town, its a damn small clump of houses
<eStormy> probably 20% of them
<water> multithreading subject to some structure
<eStormy> town is about 2x2 miles
<_QZ> water: brix forces it in its language
<eStormy> and i have a 100 foot tower
<_QZ> er, i mean it did
<water> qz: no thanks
<_QZ> every function call is a thread
<_QZ> well sorta
<water> qz: umm. no thank you
<_QZ> big functions
* water/#tunes clears his throat
<s_r> ahem!
<water> _no_ _thank_ _you_
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@t-58-209-184.dialup.wisc.edu] has joined #tunes
<s_r> hi ruiner
<_ruiner_> hi
<abi> salut, _ruiner_
<_QZ> brix was more multithreaded than beos could ever be
<eStormy> 1062 people in my 1/2 mile circle according to my estimates
<water> qz: you miss the point
<s_r> it pisses me off that BriX was discontinued
<water> qz: entirely
<_ruiner_> brix was discontinued?
<_QZ> uh ya
<_QZ> brix?
<abi> brix is cancelled and the source has been rm'd. brix info = http://www.qzx.com/brix
07:30pm
<_ruiner_> why?
<s_r> rm -rf /home/www/brix
<_QZ> s_r: ?
<s_r> one night QZ was really drunk and just rmed everything
<s_r> on a dare
<_QZ> ya it was s_r that dared me cuz he knew i was drunk
<_QZ> so u can take out any anger u might have on him
<eStormy> i don't you learned anything from that...like don't drink?
<s_r> qz people were actually expecting a BriX release... it was mentioned on newsgroups
<_QZ> ya i dont drink anymore, but its too late now
<_QZ> what newsgroups?
<eStormy> comp.os.misc
<abi> comp.os.misc is pretty dead, we could use that one  :)
<s_r> and i think comp.lang.x86.asm
<s_r> or some asm newsgroup
<eStormy> it's had 350 posts in the last 2 weeks
<eStormy> all on one thread  (c:
<_QZ> tao's?
<_QZ> i just read every article in c.o.m and didnt see anything about brix
<_ruiner_> brb
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
<eStormy> i have a 2 month archive...lemme try a grep
<eStormy> might have been the asm group, i read it too
<_QZ> i cant believe these celerons are running this fast and the chip isnt even warm
<_QZ> intel is the best
<water> uhh no
<_QZ> uhh yes
<water> can you say powerpc and power3?
<water> g4?
<_QZ> i read c.l.x.a too
<eStormy> nope, not in that group
<s_r> qz get an Alpha
<_QZ> water: can u get a g4 or ppc that outperforms a p3-550 for under $70?
<s_r> heh Fare flamed some guy posting about FreeOS
<eStormy> what group
<s_r> qz: where can i buy p3-550s for < $70?
<s_r> comp.os.misc
<_QZ> s_r: celeron 366
<_QZ> when clocked at 567mhz it has the same speed as a p3-550
<eStormy> _QZ: then you should have said: can u get a g4 or ppc that outperforms an overclocked celeron for $70?
<_QZ> no
<s_r> celeron has a smaller cache
<s_r> it's not the same
<s_r> intel is better than digital in some ways
<s_r> but the opposite is true too
<_QZ> the cache only affects smp and server stuff
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@t-69-210-163.dialup.wisc.edu] has joined #tunes
<s_r> intel releases a lot of information on programming their CPUs
<_ruiner_> yeah
-:- _water [water@ppp-ip81-b16.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<s_r> and intel promotes reselling the individual CPUs
<_QZ> since the celeron cache is running at FULL cpu speed it makes up for being small
<_ruiner_> you can find a number to call on their development site that you can order programming manuals for free
<s_r> but digital's CPUs are raw power
<eStormy> 1 mention of brix in the asm group
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-75.tscnet.net])
<eStormy> Message-ID: <7h43ff$if0$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>
<s_r> where can i buy individual Alpha CPUs?
07:40pm
<_water> powerpc cpu's have backside caches which are as good as celeron caches
<hcf> _QZ: goto deja, put in brix as keyword and group as comp.lang.asm.x86 
<s_r> www.remarq.com
-:- _water is now known as water
<_QZ> water: can i buy a ppc for $70 that matches the performance of a p3-550?
<water> i should also mention that compilers for risc architectures are faster and easier to implement
* eStormy/#tunes will never overclock.
<water> qz: the chip itself or a motherboard?
<_QZ> if u cant point me to a web page where i can buy one for $70 then admit that celeron (intel's chip) has more performance for the dollar than any other chip
<_QZ> just the chip
<water> yes
<_QZ> yes what?
<water> besides you obviously want mainstream
<_QZ> intel is better?
<_QZ> i want something linux runs on
<_QZ> so any cpu will do
<water> haha
<water> are you saying linux won't run on ppc?
<_QZ> so any cpu will do
<s_r> can Linux run on a Hobbit?
<s_r> or ARM
<water> qz: just support the sucky architecture you love
<eStormy> transputer!
<_QZ> but INTEL's celeron is the fastest cpu per dollar
<water> qz: who cares?
<water> qz: you'd spend lots of cash on computers anyway
<_QZ> water: do u agree?
<s_r> qz: intel architecture has a braindead design
<water> qz: indeed
<_QZ> ok
<water> qz: i agree that you focus on a completely narrow measurement of value
<_QZ> yes the ppc/g4/alpha is better than intel
<s_r> if you can spend more cash on a processor you'd want something much better than a celeron
<_QZ> but not for the dollar
<water> f*** the dollar
<water> the price represents market dominance in manufacutring
<water> btw, ppc chips are cheap
<water> that's why they're pretty hot for the embedded market
* water/#tunes looks up chip prices
<s_r> water get one of those new Macintosh G4 blue cubes
* water/#tunes hates pandering to apple
<_QZ> i was close to buying an alpha last year
<water> apple's the only reason i don't have a ppc
<_QZ> i contacted this company in utah to get one
<_QZ> but alpha support in linux was so so at the time
07:50pm
<_QZ> u can buy an alpha mobo that is PC compatible u know
<water> ppc's also run at around 5 watts
<s_r> do you know of anywhere i can buy individual alpha CPUs?
<_QZ> it was cheap too, like around $200
<_QZ> or $300
<_QZ> s_r: ya this place in utah
<s_r> qz: can you give me the URL?
<_QZ> hah
<s_r> i want to run Windows NT on an Alpha@!#$
<_QZ> i didnt have an url
<_QZ> i went to them
<s_r> what phone #?
<_QZ> it was a year or 2 ago
<s_r> dammit
<s_r> i want to know hwere i can get an alpha
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 51 min 25 secs
<_QZ> just get dual celerons
<_QZ> it is cheaper
<eStormy> i plan to
<water> hey tril
<_QZ> u need to do it now tho
<_ruiner_> bah!
<_QZ> intel has castrated all new celerons so they wont do smp, even with smp slockets
* eStormy/#tunes can't do it now.
<water> corporations are real spoil-sports
<water> never put all your eggs in a corporation's basket
<eStormy> smp athlon  (c;
08:00pm
<_QZ> athlon will be around $800-900
<_QZ> for 600mhz
<s_r> what is athlon?
<eStormy> amd k7
<_QZ> these dual celerons are so nice to look at
<_QZ> i know its pathetic but its true
<_ruiner_> I want an athlon
<s_r> QZ celery sticks
<Tril> qz did you really get a job at Microsoft
<Tril> or is that more of your shit
<s_r> *maybe* he just said he stopped BrIX but is really working on it 
<s_r> just to stop people from badgering him
<Tril> did they open a Salt Lake office, or are you moving to Redmond?
<water> hehe
<_QZ> they have an office here
<Tril> _QZ: Saying you rm'd brix source just adds more evidence to what I suspected all along, that brix never existed, and you made it up
<Tril> if you rm'd it, then you lost all chance of proving me wrong
<water> tril: did what i was talking about with jdl the other night seem like an improvement?
<_ruiner_> gotta go
<_ruiner_> later
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> water, in what way
08:10pm
<water> hmm
<_QZ> well i never had much source anyway so rm'ing it wasnt that much of a loss
<Tril> it seemed like a producitve discussion
<water> tril: in explaining the philosophical underpinnings of my ideas.
<Tril> yeah it was helping me
<Tril> keep it up
<Tril> brb
-:- joob [0@dm5012.vix.zaz.com.br] has joined #Tunes
<joob> hello
<joob> hello water?!
<water> hi joob
<joob> belez???
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<s_r> water hates .br
<s_r> ?
<water> huh?
<water> brazilians?
<water> sr: explain
08:20pm
<s_r> water just hates Brazil :)
* water/#tunes doesn't understand why s_r would say that
<s_r> didn't you work there before?
<water> umm. no
<water> i've been to central america quite a few times, but that's different
<s_r> have you travelled to very many places?
<water> hmm
<water> i guess so.
<water> not more than a dozen, though
<water> outside the US
<Tril> back
<s_r> the coolest thing about France is Fidonet
* water/#tunes read about that somewhere...
<water> it's almost like a public utility, isn't it?
<s_r> you read a lot don't you ? :)
<water> yes, perhaps too much
* Tril/#TUNES forces the cdrom and cd audio to work
<Tril> water: you must be a spy! Americans don't read :)
<water> hehe
08:30pm
* eStormy/#tunes and his wife have a whole wall of books.
* water/#tunes tries to minimize the amount of things he has, particularly the physical ones.
<water> most of my library is electronic
* eStormy/#tunes ponders how to put 300 paperbacks onto his computer...nope.
<s_r> estormy, what, romance novels written by Fabio?
<water> hehe
<water> estormy: blame the publisher
<s_r> ;')
08:40pm
<water> 900 pages with some drawings is about 5MB
<eStormy> sci-fi/fantasy/mystery
<eStormy> reading on the computer would suck
<s_r> estormy: HP Lovecraft
<water> estorm: think about the future
<eStormy> monitors are too inept yet to make it pleasing to the eye
<water> estorm: hell! think about the next year!
<water> e-paper
<eStormy> when a computer is the size and weight of a paperback, with a 300dpi screen with no bleeding, i'll read my books on computer
<water> actually, 600dpi is more like it
<water> estormy: wait a year or so
<eStormy> my estimate is 20 years, screen technology is not even close
<water> bs
<water> not a screen, actual paper
<water> haven't you read about xerox's new paper tech?
<eStormy> the virtual paper document management stuff?  not applicable
<water> no
<water> the type of ink that is addressable
<eStormy> and even if 5 companies already have it, it'll be 20 years till you can buy books for the machine, and can afford the machine, etc.
<eStormy> and not just some books, but all the books.
<water> estorm: why don't you just read something before making ignorant predictions
<water> ?
<water> xerox is already working on marketable versions
<s_r> water: what kind of features does this epaper have?
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us224.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<s_r> water: what do you mean by E Paper?
<s_r> like real paper that is electronic
<water> sr: not sure. i believe that it's black-and-white for now
<s_r> or pages of books on computer?
<water> yes
<water> no
<s_r> electronic paper? i doubt it
<water> i mean a sheet of material like paper that acts like a computer screen
<water> it responds to software and would use something like a graphics card to interface with a motherboard
<water> the refresh rate of course isn't fast, but then the desired application type is already very limited
<s_r> hmmm i think water reads too much :P
<eStormy> i stand by my 20 years...
<water> i think tunesers are on average too ignorant
<water> estormy: case in point
08:50pm
<eStormy> water should read about that $1000 parallel computer cnn was reporting on that will be available in 18 montsh and is 3 orders of magnitude faster than current technology
<water> hehe
<s_r> estormy, huh?
<s_r> quantum computing?
<s_r> water read anything about quantum computing?
<water> sr: yes. why?
<s_r> quantum computing sounds great
<water> what about it sounds great?
<eStormy> s_r: some company put out a press release saying that, and cnn reported it.
<s_r> so radical and fast
<water> estorm: i pick my sources carefully, thank you
<water> sr: and no adequate computing model exists for it
<s_r> water have you done any research on quantum computing? any prototypes, ideas?
<water> it's orthogonal to my arrow system idea
<water> as such, i don't give it more attention than other ideas, like fpga
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.210] has joined #Tunes
<s_r> fpga?
<water> hi kauf!
<water> field-programmable gate array
<s_r> hey kaufmann, the brazil boycotter
<s_r> brazilnet boycotter
<water> dpga = dynamic programmable gate array
<Kaufmann> Hi water, s_r
<Kaufmann> s_r: what?
<s_r> remember that tale you told about the great Brazil ISP boycott?
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<water> they represent bit-level arrays of logic gates which can be reconfigured to simulate hardware architectures
<water> fpga at boot time, dpga at run-time
* s_r/#tunes is using an FPGA box right now
<water> yeah sure
<s_r> heh
<s_r> water maybe intel will make the first FPGA prototype
<water> it's been done
<Kaufmann> Hey guys, read this: http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_6/kelsey/index.html
<Kaufmann> s_r: oh yes
<water> you can buy fpga's for $10 a pop
<water> kauf: seen it
<Kaufmann> This is a very good thing.
<water> and intel won't touch fpga's with a ten-foot pole
<s_r> what is, kauf, the article or fpga?
<water> sr: the spp
<Kaufmann> s_r: the article
09:00pm
<s_r> what's good about spp?
<water> sr: read the f**ing article
* water/#tunes suggests discussing the project at hand
<eStormy> bah, i've read the xerox pages, i still don't think i'll be buying a cheap computer-book and be downloading any books of my choice off the web from publishers before 2019.
<s_r> water do you think it's possible to implement the arrow system in system level code?
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (too much tpying!)
<water> sr: of course, but why would i want to?
<water> sr: it's possible to implement anything that is turing-computable by a turing-equivalent machine
<s_r> it might be fun to make it a full independent computing environment
<water> make "it": make what?
<water> the arrow system?
<abi> the arrow system is an information system that will reflect on itself.  most likely, it will have no kernel.
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Leaving)
09:10pm
<water> thought so
<water> s_r?
<abi> s_r is probably working on a little thing called Virix
<hcf> Tril | Fare: awake?
<Tril> hcf: no
<Tril> hcf: I'm just stopping by.
<hcf> Tril: gclist's 9907 index & threads html wasnt properly generated
<hcf> the other months seem fine
09:20pm
<Tril> hcf: any particular thing wrong, other than it didn't have the messages from today, since it only reindexes once a day?
<Tril> i just reindexed everything, and it seemed to go fine
<_QZ> hmm, i havent tried to clock my celeron at 616mhz yet
* water/#tunes wonders just how much discussion overhead is required for one sparse irc thread that is actually to the point.
<hcf> Tril: oh, hmm, i saw the raw index size and assumed that they werent all from today, i was wrong
<water> bye
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!)
<hcf> (all minus one that was properly html'd)
<Tril> ok, it seems to be working, then
<hcf> yup
<_QZ> it booted
<_QZ> ah win98 locked up
<hcf> Tril: btw, iv found the culprit for why abi responds to non-question non-addressed-to-abi public msgs
09:30pm
<Tril> what is the kernel command line parameter for SB IRQ? I can only find hte module parameter..
<Tril> hcf: thought you found that a long time ago
<hcf> Tril: well, if i did, i found another one
<hcf> watch:
<hcf> qz
<hcf> ^nothing
<hcf> http://tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma
<abi> hmmm... http://tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma is good
<hcf> ^responds if she knows something
<hcf> and if the msg is of a certain length
<Tril> oh yeah i remember these hex codes.. now which one is it? Docs are hard to find..
09:40pm
>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us224.javanet.com] requested PING 931493002 from TUNES
<Tril> ah, the BootPrompt-HOWTO is it
<Tril> abi: params.doc is BootPrompt-HOWTO
<_QZ> hcf: and what does that have to do with me?
<hcf> _QZ: just happens that 'qz' is a short factoid
<_QZ> ok cross yer fingers
<Tril> same here
<_QZ> it wont turn on at 616/2.1v but it locks up in win98 at 616/2.0v. so im trying 616/2.05v
<_QZ> damn it locked up in win98
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: intertwined digits
<_QZ> no dual 616mhz for me :(
09:50pm
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB
-:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann
<Fare> Gakuk, K!
<Fare> K: btw, beware of what you call "nationalism"
<Fare> the word has multiple meanings, just like "religious".
<Fare> if for one meaning, it is indeed a dangerous disease,
<Fare> in the other meaning, it is a great virtue.
-:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes
11:20pm
<_BC> Hi
<_BC> abi
<abi> yes, _BC?
<_BC> what is persistance
<abi> _bc: i haven't a clue
<_BC> poo
<_BC> Can anyone give me a brief blurb on 'persistance' in an OS?
-:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has left #tunes []
<Kaufmann> When has BC left?
<Kaufmann> abi: what is the time?
<abi> the time is 23:25:02 1999
<Kaufmann> abi: what was the time when _BC left the channel?
<abi> kaufmann: i don't know
<Kaufmann> abi: well, learn to keep track of things like that.
<Kaufmann> Fare: It's old Al's words, not mine :)
11:30pm
<Fare> hum. Gakuk!
<Kaufmann> Fare: It's old Al's words, not mine :) (rp, for Fare's sake)
<Fare> BC: still here?
<Fare> K: rp?
<Fare> abi: seen _BC
<abi> _BC was last seen saying something on IRC Thu Jul  8 23:21:25 1999
<Kaufmann> Fare: how do you think nationalism constitutes "a great virtue"? (Not that I can't think of a reason myself, but I want your opinion.)
<Kaufmann> Fare: rp == repost
<Fare> same as religion.
<Kaufmann> abi: well, why didn't you tell me that?
<abi> kaufmann: i don't know
<Fare> did you read the glossary entry on religion? :)
<Fare> well, read what Vaclav Havel wrote on nationalism/patriotism
<Kaufmann> Fare, how do you explain to abi that the concepts of "last time you seen BC" and "last time BC was seen saying something on IRC" are equivalent?
<Fare> or what Jean-Francois Deniau may hve written about it
<Fare> Kaufmann: ask hcf about things like that.
<Kaufmann> Fare, I have none of those books available. Care to give me a briefing?
* Kaufmann/#Tunes pokes hcf
* hcf/#tunes pokes back while yawning
<Fare> K: well, if nationalism means that you acknowledge and respect your roots, so you know who you are and where you go, then it's good.
<Fare> K: it's good as a particular case of positive knowledge
<Kaufmann> Fare: but that's not a particular consequence of nationalism.
<Fare> K: if it means that you ignore and despise other people's roots, so that you do not consider them as fully human, then it's bad.
<Fare> it's bad as a particular case of negative ignorance.
<Fare> well, it may be a different concept from what _you_ call "nationalism".
<Fare> but it may be what other people who say they are "nationalist" are thinking about.
<Kaufmann> Which is what Al was saying... nationalism leads to divisionism, divisionism leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side.
<Fare> you may choose a different word like "patriotism",
<hcf> Kaufmann: its seen person, not just nick
<Kaufmann> I'm sorry, I miswrote that. What I meant was "but that's not a particularly common or evident consequence of nationalism."
<Kaufmann> hcf: what?
<Fare> but it's concepts, not words, that count.
<Kaufmann> Yes.
<Fare> K: I think it _is_ a particularly common consequence, just not a particular spectacular one.
<Fare> And the media/whatever prefer to show the spectacular.
<Fare> again, it is the same about religion.
11:40pm
<Fare> If you respect your parent's religion, for the sake of having a stronger link to the universe, it's good.
<Kaufmann> I just think that it's one thing to know where you come from - that's a very important thing in the Jewish culture. But it's another thing to believe that because your roots are different from those of other people, then you are somehow intrinsically different and should be separate from them - in which case it's divisionism, and divisionism is a Very Bad Thing.
<Fare> if you disrespect other people's religion and consider them lesser humans for not being the same, it's bad.
<Fare> K: the most spectacular effect of that trait of the Jewish culture is a kind of arrogance from a powerful minority that make jews hated world-wide.
<Fare> K: so jewish people are as subject to good and bad forms of nationalism as other people
<Kaufmann> Yes, that's definitely true... unfortunately.
<Fare> (even more so, I'd say)
<Kaufmann> There's a Rush song about this. I think it's "Subdivisions".
<Fare> (my, some of them have even installed a colony ruled by a racist apartheid!)
<Fare> who's Rush?
<Fare> (perhaps the last remaining racist state in the industrialized world)
<Kaufmann> Rush = majorly cool Canadian "prog" rock band. They're sci-fi fans, geeks, free-thinkers and atheists, all of which are traits all too rare in the mainstream music scene.
<Kaufmann> Rush has been around since the mid-70's.
<Kaufmann> abi: Rush is a majorly cool Canadian "prog" rock band. They're sci-fi fans, geeks, free-thinkers and atheists, all of which are traits all too rare in the mainstream music scene.
<Kaufmann> abi: what is Rush?
<abi> Rush is a majorly cool Canadian "prog" rock band. They're sci-fi fans, geeks, free-thinkers and atheists, all of which are traits all too rare in the mainstream music scene.
<Kaufmann> This is fun. I get to indoctrinate her myself! Whee!
<hcf> Kaufmann: "prog"?
11:50pm
<Kaufmann> hcf: progressive, which can really mean a lot of different things in this context.
<hcf> whats it mean for rush?
<Fare> K: we could say about "progressives" the very same things as about "nationalists"
<Kaufmann> Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis, Rush... they've all been called "progressive". All are radically different from one another.
<Fare> if progressive means aware of where you want to go, and strengthen your tie to the world, it's good
<Fare> if it means being unaware of where other people want to go, and consider them as lesser humans for that, then it's bad
<Kaufmann> hcf: it's hard to define Rush music. It has a lot of orchestration, but not in a snotty "new-classical" kind of way - just that they know how to take advantage of polyphony. Rush strives for really meaningful music, with lyrics that go beyond the traditional romantic crap (there's a Frank Zappa quote about romantic music). They have a sound which is very distinguishable as their own.
<Kaufmann> hcf: all in all, it's a good musical experience for anyone to go to a music store and pick up an album like "Hemispheres" or "Permanent Waves".
<Kaufmann> Or - even better. Do you have RealPlayer?
<Fare> RealPlayer is evil proprietary software.
<Kaufmann> ...okie then.
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0709
IRC log ended Fri Jul  9 00:00:00 1999