IRC log started Sat Jun 26 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0626 -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-234.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- _water is now known as water -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-234.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] !Hyrlik:*! Anyone awake? !Hyrlik:*! :) !aphzen:*! Only us crazy Australians are awake. -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1005.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-216-127.s127.tnt3.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@dialup46-2-43.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup46-2-43.swipnet.se]) -:- smkl [sami@MCCXII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-99.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hola what's up, water 08:40am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-99.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <- A Great Place to Discuss Computing Dreams -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <- A Great Place to Discuss Computing Dreams! -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-14.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-99.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes om -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) hi e i mean stormy hi you know of any good e-zines? (free ones, of course :) 10:30am -:- Tril_ [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES tril? you there? -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) -:- Tril_ is now known as Tril yeah hi busy? nope.. i came here to talk about designing a relational database for the review project. ok cool i'm still working on dtml i won't mind doing it, but i'd like suggestions learning that is ok. suggestions? hmm there is a wizard that writes dtml for queries though. like what tables and fields we should have -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-49.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes re: wizard/ ok, but i'm looking at the entry creation hs! :) water! :( entry? hehe tril: yeah, adding objects to the database 10:40am should a compiler these days only be able to output 32-bit code? I think "query" includes any sql command including adding to the db :) should? tril: oh, ok blarg should it be able to output 16-bit code I was looking at the Z SQL reference hs: just implement the damned thing over gcc or djgpp! that's where i saw the wizard oh damnit your not answering my question i skipped that, thinking it was irrelevant hehe water you always know everything hs: no! hs: why the hell would you want 16-bit code in a prototype system? fine then you answered my question ever so indirectly now i must get back to my intel manuals well, if you knew anything about gcc or djgpp, ... -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (blarg) that guy wastes his time so effectively anyway -:- GNU-man [chat@ppp039.elitenet.com.br] has joined #tunes gnuman? hi hi hoy, GNU-man hello, GNU-man

oh thanks free reflective computer system? what GNU stuff are you involved in? yep abi: tunes? it has been said that tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated it's software for now is seeing the tunes homepage right now discom..who said that? not i ok, well i'm going to draw a database design, and then see what you think cool 10:50am honestly, i have no direct experience with using rel-databases, just experimenting with programming them -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-148.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> darn it, i was cut off -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-14.tscnet.net]) -:- _water is now known as water gnuman: whatcha think? water: very cool it's mostly tril and fare's work i'm the "arrow paper" guy I am in arrow paper right now cool it's not publicly releasable yet i'll fix that soon, though -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (thunder) 11:00am -:- binEng [Anders@dialup93-2-22.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes hey bin! hi hi, binEng * binEng/#tunes pushes abi off a cliff hehe btw gnuman, if the arrow paper sounds like a lot of babble, i can explain it better in person I think I will need a master's degree in CS to understand these papers :) i can simplify it for you i know, that's why i'm revising it ok go on well, what about it all makes sense so far? oh, I dunno water: I never saw any explaination on how you avoid having to check all arrows everytime check all arrows? what do you mean? it you want to see if a certain arrow exist. I think you said ontologies solved that. oh well, not all arrows are relevant in a single context right. How do you know which are? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1032.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 11:10am well, those that are reachable from the ontologies in the current frame hi hcf! hail fluid one abi: ontology? ontology is a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world sounds good, but that still says nothing on how you do it in reality hehe yes, that's what i have to prove is that i can make a framework for making ontologies that really works basically, i have to port ontologies to my prototype prove? I need no proof, I only want explained how you avoid having to deal with all arrows all the time bin: ontologies relate user-interface with arrows bin: you don't have to think about something in arrows in order for the ontology to help the system understand still says me nothing hmm bin: an ontology is like a computer language: you don't have to type in binary in order to know that the system works in binary but do u really "know"? that's off-topic hcf: what do you mean, "really know" hcf: oh bin: does that help for you? hm not alone... if gives a clue, though s/if/it/ does that preserve the homo-iconic nature of the system? 11:20am does preserve the ...? hmm yes sorry, ontologies well, ontologies already exist for other languages, like prolog. i'm just 'porting' them to arrow. so, yes an ontology is like a POV? yes, it's like that. but they aren't the same thing is their a formal POV idea you're thinking of? for me, the idea is fuzzy nope ' ok the last line was from a juggling ball rolling over the keyboard :) hehe s/their/there the Free Reflective Computing System is a new OS design concept ? gnuman: sure, but it's also a language concept gnuman: like smalltalk what are you building? A new OS or a new language? hehe read the faq! fare answers that question better than i can ok :) they should be the same! well, yeah Tril: they rnt? the UI too hcf: they are? :) 11:30am hcf: ? wow it's quiet 11:40am ssshh :) bin: does it make sense, then? what bin: the ontology stuff? I have still got no explaination on how it works sorry, i'm polling to find out what sort of material to write on "how it works"? exactly ever looked at an ontology in a programming language? -:- smkl [sami@MLXXV.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes where does an ontology come from? how is it represented? how is it used? And - how does it *help* it's just a bunch of declarations, when in a logic language where does it come from? :) it's a very generic concept _very_ generic representation is variable use is variable how do the computer get to know about it? how do you tell it? you make an interface to the arrow system that is arrow-defined abi: ontology? ontology is probably a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world the system collects all coherent statements into ontologies at a fine-grain if it's arrow-defined, does that mean it's written as arrows? that means that there is a 'canonical' interpretation of the info you add to the system via that interface into arrows no clue there can be other interpretations, but they aren't necessary huh? what you say makes no sense to me ok, if i talk to the system about some objects... my statements are in a context 11:50am they are interpreted with some assumptions context for you or the computer? doesn't matter but the computer knows about the context? "knows"? it guesses that's what all computers do, because they have incomplete info about you generally, I wouldn't say computers "guess" a programming language is a static guess k Tunes glossary kicks the ass of Microkernels but you're personifying computers anyway, by saying "knows" hehehe gnuman: yeah it does :) actually, I'd rather use 'know' than 'guess' but never mind know => complete knowledge about referendum but never mind you will always have to correct a computer, just like you have to correct a person in a discussion ok sorry :) -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-67.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes wb hs hi i got another question :) hehe ok, i'll answer directly does a c compiler parse every header as they are included or what? i think so hmmm * water/#tunes doesn't remember if it is always the case some headers are pretty big headers are also lame, though okay, water. abi: headers? headers are too small to each deserve a page or lame, though heh um abi: forget headers water: I forgot headers i like headers it preprocesses the headers when they are included into compilation unit, then parses the compilation unit hs: re-write systems don't need headers BAH! hehe i want the programmer to be able to include what she needs cpp makes one big file that has no #includes in it, then cc1 processes the whole thing * water/#tunes loves pointing out the benefits of hll's to HickServ's c-loving ass. nothing is compiled until all the headers are included oh yeah of course like let's say there's a function in "header." * water/#tunes kicks himself header.h and you use it er let's say lyou don't use it so the compiler ignores it? well, yeah 12:00pm does it even bother parsing it? it probably won't be ignored if you set "unreachable code removable" flag s/removable/removal function or function declaration? function water: i think thats pascal oh * HickServ/#tunes 's ass loves no one * HickServ/#tunes not even c if you have a function in .o file, it's always possible to call it im deciding how i want this compiler to handle header files unless it's static or something you mean link with it. linking only includes functions that are used, right? hs: if you like header files then you like c Tril: i don't think so .. many different languages have header files i happen to like them hs: they're all like c what's wrong with them ? smkl, dynamic linking, you may be right, static linking, it should only include what is needed they indicate a lame language, that's what's wrong with them water is becoming more like Fare * water/#tunes tries to convince HickServ to avoid making YALC in static, it will only include .o files that are needed header files just makes things easier * water/#tunes gives up. HickServ's missing the point. YALC: yucky ass like C? YALC: Yet Another Lame Compiler you can put your macros and functions in headers i don't wanna compile them in nor do most sane people hs: is this about Tunes? uh no hs: or are you looking for general programming help? it's about my programming language oh uh hs: well, take it somewhere else! yeah it's about tunes definately most languages have interfaces instead of headers yeah, sure %1000 :) you haven't really told me what's wrong with header files other than they suck interfaces? hs: i can't because you've never really used a good programming language they are a hackerish preprocessing mechanism 12:10pm well sorry i was brought up deprived interfaces are like headers, but they are part of the language and what is advantagious about them? they are well defined and easier to use are they in files or compiled in modules? usually they are kept in another file, and then the implemenation is checked so that it implements the interface interfaces can be compiled separately so they are faster to use ok and do they just like normal source files without entry points? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-148.tscnet.net]) no, they usually just have declarations then where does like function or word source go? source goes to the implementation files i see what's an example of a language that uses this? 12:20pm pascal (if i remember correctly), ml, probably languages like ada and java ... most languages that are meant to be compiled java imports header files doesn't it? i would guess they aren't preprocessed like c's headers hmmm how about lisp what does it do? no idea... lisp doesn't have a module system, which is one of it's worst weaknesses o0h well all these other languages sound like they have similar files that are just handled a different way similar purpose, better implementation brb -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-181.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes back damnit im still confused :( what about? i don't know how im gonna handle seperate source code (header file like stuff) oh * water/#tunes feels so sowwy for the YALC maker :( :( awwwwww hehe * HickServ/#tunes starts to cry 12:30pm it's just *sniff* *sniff* i've been raised on C/C++ and assembler well, you don't have to live with that. i didn't how do you think i should handle them hmm java seems to generate interfaces from implementation files -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: www.tunes.org -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ brb water, tril, thanks for help brb ok -:- GNU-man [chat@ppp039.elitenet.com.br] has left #tunes [] ok -:- dani [user5023@200.242.179.226] has joined #tunes -:- dani [user5023@200.242.179.226] has left #tunes [] i gotta go soon so i need to wrap this up ok i see two phrases, "interface" and "implementation file" help me understand i don't think i can not that i don't understand i used the word interface to mean specification of implementation oic interface tells what values are visible and what are their types and stuff like functon declarations? yes 12:40pm and then their source is ina seperate file? -:- ProGuy [Paul@p456-116.ppp.get2net.dk] has joined #tunes source is in implementation file ... sometimes they are in the same file hmmm in my language there is no way to declare words(fuctions) without defining them -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (thunder) blarg him he left? weird i don't know you know now that i think about it when i look at stdio.h it has no function definitions just declaratoins hehe yep so where are they? makes you think... in libraries! * HickServ/#tunes starts to twitch uncontrolably what? :) is there any reference in it to where the library is? no so how does it link them? that's the compiler's job i mean, the linker uhh ok, so i'm not sure. :) hick that's handled at the linker stage ok it's in libc.a or libc.so ok well linking will be the subject of our next discussion until then * Tril/#TUNES thinks maybe hick should learn how a compiler works before writing one hasta luego amigos yeah bye! yeah! bye -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:)) sigh... bin: still here? here still want to talk? hmm... :) well your choice I think we didn't get anywhere last time... huh? sorry 12:50pm * water/#tunes wonders what binEng doesn't get exactly. there must be some missing piece that seems obvious to me yes, seems that way. Something basic hmm I can't put my finger on it either what's the question on your mind, then? simple: What's Arrows? ;) hehe damn. you got me hell if i know ;) hehe well, ontologies are like interfaces, but the system uses them to reflect on itself and its parts as well as relate to users and other software ontologies pick the relevant arrows from the others, right? an ontology is just anything coherent hmm they do pick arrows, but only if you think of "all possible arrows that could exist" as being the bag from which ontologies pick the arrows but there are simply too many arrows to have to deal with at all times. what's the problem with that? they don't each have to have a space in memory the problem is that you can't search the whole universe of arrows to check if a certain arrow exist. and that's why you shouldn't explicitly _do_ that that's not the computer's job ...and ontologies is what makes it possible to avoid that, or? -:- smkl [sami@DXXIX.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes 01:00pm well, there are infinitely many programs in, say, lisp, but no one complains about that -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1032.javanet.com]) wb smkl hello water the ontology, like the programming language, makes that kind of thing easier