IRC log started Wed May 5 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0505 -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh7-port17.snet.net] has joined #tunes hello.... anyone here? 12:10am -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) -:- IMMY [imran@212.26.75.184] has joined #Tunes -:- IMMY [imran@212.26.75.184] has left #Tunes [] -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.cx] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) !mccaffrey.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT drexelhill.pa.us.opirc.nu 8005 from lilo -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-121-141.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Fare!" :-) -:- ruiner [nate@ppp144.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations ruiner!" :-) greetings ATG has one of these horrible auto-greeters. ATG: you suck! ok om heh heh * Fare/#Tunes is rewriting his meta-/etc in guile I have some questions and trying to have it use some ad-hoc emulation of a (correct) persistent store ruiner: I have some answers. Let's hope they match. for instance, here's one: 42 ok......is it feasable to have your operating system be able to recognize and use drivers from other os's I think the hard part of that would be getting it to recognize them but it'd give somebody a real jump ....wouldn't have to sit and write drivers for the rest of their life 12:50pm hmmmmmmm....... no answer? -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) 01:00pm -:- Fare [fare@balance.wiw.org] has joined #Tunes wb hum figure out my ? yet? the host I'm usually logged on sucks I had to switch hosts after the connection was lost I did not receive your question. can you /msg it to me? ok......is it feasable to have your operating system be able to recognize and use drivers from other os's I think the hard part of that would be getting it to recognize them but it'd give somebody a real jump ....wouldn't have to sit and write drivers for the rest of their life I'd like us to do just that. The flux oskit is infrastructure for just that have you seen it? nope well, it'sm mostly just what you're asking for hmmmmmm....... sweet now if I can find a pen I'll write that down only, it works with gross releases (one every few years, one earlier this year) instead of having an open CVS or other development nobody's been integrating it to tunes, because there is not much tunes to integrate it to :( hmmmmmm 01:30pm I have a question about tunes is it going to be like MS where you come out with a service pack every few months, or like linux where its updated constantly, or like dos was....rarely at least in the early days of dos... will rather be like BSD, CMUCL, and other, that have an open CVS server there is already a CVS server for TUNES so you have to be connected to the net......booooooo although we hope to someday replace CVS with something of our own darn. my ISP really sucks my os will bring back the superiority of the standalone computer I hate how things seem to be drifting to dumbterminals which os is it? I don't remember seing you on irc. none yet I'm still learning asm but I'm constantly coming up with ideas.....like that drivers one yeah, good idea. well, I think there are lots of ideas in tunes that could serve you. such as? orthogonal persistence? reflection? garbage collection? migration? using a high-level language? higher-order functions? I wanted to make it pretty much the opposite of that 01:40pm oh as few restrictions on the programmer as possible then there already is FORTH! the anti NT Depends on just WHAT you call "restrictions"!!!! well.....NT doesn't let you have direct access to the hardware that's heresy to me forcing one to be low-level IS the worst restriction s opposed to ALLOWING one to be high-level I disagree.....forcing one to be high level is I'll let people go high level thats no big deal in a high-level system, you can still allow, through reflection, low-level parts to be accessed, but in a low-level system, you just can't create high-level services that will be available to others in a consistently stable way -:- FareWell [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes erg.....anything that isn't direct is going to cost processor cycles..... my, sucks sucks sucks om * AlonzoTG/#tunes iz writing OS too atc.peon.net/~cyborg/ My solution to hardware abstraction: GOOD DRIVERS!!! app would generate a transaction... the driver would translate it into a port-script... and the IO driver would send it to the device... There is really no other way to abstract the machine... -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- FareWell is now known as Fare u really really DO need to abstract the machine... otherwise you will be stuck with 15 IRQ channels for the rest of eternity. :(((((((( ruiner: you forget essential considerations: people don't think in terms of bits. thats not so bad I'm not forcing them to stay low level... If it isn't directly mapped to *user* concepts, you waste *user* cycles, a programming language won't be integrated into my os and user cycles cost much more than machine cycles today. 01:50pm well, if you don't provide a way to *consistently* go high-level, then no two different high-level projects can communicate least they base on their own high-level system, possibly built atop yours, but distinct. ATG: compiling driver things instead of interpreting them at run-time is a good idea ATG: but if this isn't part of a generic compiler framework, then you lose, because every driver gets its own compiler infrastructure, and its gets too complex and hairy Hmmz... Its interactive... The prog queries the driver. "what can u do?" send get Change_baud, read status, set queue..... that kind of thing... then the prog uses a fuzzy matching scheme and figures out how to use the driver and then sends a stream of commands to it... the protocol will have to be standardized in the first generation... Hopefully in the second generation it will function more like a braine... and just sort of integrate itself.... I am working on some theories, I came up with a model a few dayze ago but I forgot it, I am trying to re-create it... :((( Anyway... back to trying to remember... is there a homepage for these projects? I mean.....for all the projects that call this irc channel home open source or otherwise..... I think that would be interesting I'm sure we'd get a hit every week or so from ms 02:00pm fuzzy matching? ruiner: see http://www.tunes.org/Review/OSes.html#join as well as http://www.tunes.org/members.html isn't that just if you want to be a part of tunes? nope The function name doesn't have to be an exact match, anything in the ballpark... well, go ahead and read ATG: fuzzy matching is evil when you write scripts that live in a world where versions change, etc heh heh heh.....sweet I mean, fuzzy matching is good for interactive use, but not quite so for non-interactive programs -:- iepos [iepos@d1.t1-1.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES iepos: gakuk! gakuk! hey, i got a few books on logic. i still don't fully understand that curry-howard-debruijn isomorphism though... the answer is 422 functions somehow correspond to proofs, i guess... ruiner: only 42, I fear. hmmz.... it was a typo....I swear lemme contemplate that (om) iepos: haven't we already discussed that isomorphism here? iepos: read the stuff by Benjamin Werner 02:10pm nope. i forgot about it. later all like .....4 hours or so oh, yes we did discuss a little i guess.. *poof* -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) maybe i'll go read that now... where is it at, again? oh yeah, i couldn't get a copy of Curry's Combinatory Logic though... hmmm ... now i've gotten distracted playing with Conway's game of life... fare, are you still there? or is your server messing up again... ? iepos: have you built that big turing-machine-in-game-foof-life monster? ftp.inria.fr/local/Projects/coq/Benjamin.Werner/ or such yeah, i built a slow implementation of it, if that's what you're asking... okay i'll go read it in just a little bit... * Fare/#Tunes is moving all his meta-/etc shell scripts to guile I intend to also track dependencies in a fine-grained way 02:20pm hmmm... what is a meta-/etc shell script ? rather a collection of shell scripts that regenerate files in /etc when the configuration changes hahahaha... no i guess actually that could be useful the configuration changes because: I'm installing a new host, or my laptop is connectioed to a different network, or whatever * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 44 hrs 57 min 10 secs greetings, Tril! yo Tril!!!!!! tril is, like, a security person. for tunes, though ,not unix ;) haha! hi abi Tril: what happended to bespin.cx? lots of hosts around the net are refusing to accept mail from the tunes list because "sender domain must exist". They somehow can't resolve bespin.cx. Tril: I received a confirmation request for a subscription to cybernethics@tunes.org -- how do I remove the need for that? cybernethics: there will be a confirmation anytime someone tries to subscribe a different email address than the one that sent the request well, my ISP cannot see bespin.cx indeed! I thought you had 3 isps well, some can't. what exactly is wrong? Do the root nameservers fail to delegate .CX properly? Or is it a problem with the bespin.cx nameservers? dunno I told bob to change the reverse DNS for bespin to bespin.dhs.org. So that will be our official name. if he gets around to it maybe it'll fix self and is but a transient error of a root server still, was annoying at best Tril: oh, ok Fare, you know how to use emacs pretty well, right? Tril: have you read my current activity from the irc log? if I take a trip to his office that would speed things up. but it's not too important. (There are about 7 subscribers who can't receive tunes mail right now...) iepos: I use emacs a lot, but I dondon't use advanced features much, although I sometimes write a few petty elisp functions iepos: no, I don't know emacs very well. It's one of those learning curve things. I use pico can you tell me how to remap the ^H key to a backspace instead of whatever weird thing it is normally mapped to... ? iepos: Fare is the one to ask iepos: oh, that one! ;-) fare: I haven't read irc logs "that one!" ? why, have you had this problem before too? 02:30pm iepos: well, so as to have the very same config work for xemacs in both text mode and X at the same time (thru gnuclient), I had to remap backspace to C-H, and use M-H for help okay, so how do you do that? is there some elisp function for remapping key bindings? -:- ruiner [blah@ppp261.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #Tunes hmmmm iepos: complicated hi nater iepos: have an account on bespin? uh oh ... greetings yes iepos: see how I do it in my config in ~fare fare: okay... first, I use stty to set backspace to ^H ruiner: you should read some papers by Eric Raymond such as the Cathedral and Bazaar or the Homesteading the Noosphere , they are insightful about free software communities. I also use loadkeys tand/or the xterm translations to map the backspace key to ^H is slashdot down? Finally in elisp/keys.el I map C-h and other stuff like it should yeah, i hardly ever use backspace anymore... i swapped my capslock and left control keys. slashdot seems to be down erg....free software.... dammit! yeah, but read my criticism to these papers about free software theories :) its much neater when you let your software be the product I don't wanna have to support stuff for the rest of my dying days just put it out there, let somebody else support it ruiner: that's called "opensourcing" No, it's called Microsoft hey, my employer, FT, is considering use of free software more and more seriously!!!! :) :) :) fare: hmm... it's not working... USE of free software is definitely a good business decision :) i dont know about trying to profit off it directly. fare: i tried using global-set-key to map C-h to delete-char.. but it still brings up the help thing. as is production of free sofxware for instance, we're looking for some way to secure our business client sessions production may be good in the extremely long term. But planning for the extreme long term is not a good business decision. ssh looks like the solution, only it's proprietary and not standard but should we help a free clone be completed, it would become a IETF standard, and that would completely opensource the support cost of it!!! Can a string of numbers have an abstract topology? http://www.net.lut.ac.uk/psst/ - free ssh clone AlonzoTG: what's an abstract topology? 02:40pm Tril: yeah, I've been pointed to it recently -- thanks! Alonzo: sure Like protines... protein where the charges on the amino acid cause it to bend into a usefull shape... can I have a string of numbers that bend into a program? hehe, sometimes, it's better to know french and a bit of latin so as t ounderstand etymology :) Fare: definitely ATG: the problem is -- the environment has a role to play in *which* (meta)stable state the protein will actually take which would be usefull to adapt a program to the task... ATG: play the game of life? Its just a qustion of getting all the morpohlogies to be usefull... for instance, there are cases where the very "same" molecule exists in two forms, one of which is necessary to the body, and the other is lethal :) I am trying to write a Super OS, (Alonzo's OS 2.0) in simple cases, on form is the symmetric of the other. In other cases, it's more subtle (see the famous prions) damn lag ! >>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 925940797 937487 from #TUNES I can't see what I type before it's sent Fare you mean lag between your keyboard and the IRC client :) yup damn ISP! run irc locally won't help much will increase the traffic, and hence the global lag do you have lots of windows open? irc windows only one I don't use irc windows are you in lots of channels? usually only one; sometimes two or three never using windows it might help if you chose a server closer to your location... the problem is my isp (I think) the cable modem? i think the cable modem is like a bigger home lan with a T1 yup, the cable modem 02:50pm I read in the paper today that we are supposed to be getting cable modem access in our area this month. well, lfirst time they said that was more than one year before I actually got it! -:- Tikiman [tikiman@mcrigal2.student.Princeton.EDU] has joined #tunes tikiman: gakuk! * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Tikiman!" :-) Alonzo: oh, no! not again! 03:00pm hmm....what do you guys think of this idea....manually setting priority for multitasking I am a little fuzzy on priorities.. well, apparently all unices boost the priority of processes that make lots of system calls. I guess it is to increase the apparent responsiveness to the user. I watched linux and it shuffles priorities... like a process will be 15 for a while then move down to 7.... hmmm....how does flux work? is it like unix in that it compiles a kernel specific to the hardware...or like dos/win? ruiner: depends on what you call "manually" (and "priority", also :) like you have a window with all the processes listed...and how they're weighted for use of the processor I'm all for hving a recursive tree-queue of processes instead of a simple queue hmmz... u really need priorities... :| ruiner: tree-queue allows for custom and fair scheduling with limited complexity In my OS, Each module will do its own scheduling... =l every node in the tree-queue can schedule priority for its sub-nodes atg: you mean like Win31? not quite... he means like in ENIAC :) 03:10pm it'd be a nice feature for power users pardon me....power lusers :\ Okay I'll make the prototype, then you can critique it... ;] hum what's dxpc? isn't that the encrypted X protocol? differential x protocol client oh, compression. right. not encrypted, differential, for compression 03:20pm I think the arrow paper is going to become a book :( gotta find a publisher books should be published online online books will never happen they're too unwieldy ruiner: what about home super-high-speed printers? paper is a much better medium that's a good thought tril....but publishers wouldn't take too kindly to it well, publishers and newspapers didn't take kindly to the idea of electronic paper, although it could be made cheaply. Same with cheap energy ruiner: depends for what yeah...I want my own generator paper has its role, sure too bad the burbs aren't so good a place for them burbs? yeah...well....planned subdivisions suburbs it's also the name of a doom ][ level... * Tril/#TUNES is very good at doom ][ me too slashdot is back up * Fare/#Tunes stopped around level 17 or so maybe more no more fun i only played doom(s) single player on low difficulty, in order to memorize the levels and secrets. Then I only play multiplayer after that. 03:30pm shooting hordes of monsters is quite boring. But playing my friends is great u need AI... oh, maybe the problem is I have no friends to play doom2 with I need NS there is 1 deathmatch bot for doom.. i don't remember trying it NS? Natural Stupidity :) I hate intel is tunes going to automatically disable the serial #? how can you hate a corporation. they're not alive. in tunes, " exploits" probably will be a lot harder to do.. do you have a PIII? no, and I refuse to get one I'm waiting for the K7's they're not much faster than PIIs... PIIIs arent much faster. -:- Pepe501 [okl@194.143.217.108] has joined #Tunes -:- Pepe501 [okl@194.143.217.108] has left #Tunes [] Why disable serial numbers? they are not worse than ethernic serial numbers!!! and ethernic serial numbers are *useful* they are part of many protocols! i demand to have complete control over the circuitry of my cpu. I'd like that too -- after free software, free hardware design! free information! 03:40pm join #f-cpu ! (free CPU!) what's the status of f-cpu, anyway? mumbeling... I posted a poll asking what multiprocessor arch... -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ruiner[ppp261.wi.centuryinter.net]) status: about same as tunes We are trying to determine the instruction set... once we have agreed uppon an instruction set it shouldn'd be much trouble at all to implement... what's the new homepage? I have an old link at f-cpu.dyn.ml.org (ml.org is down) ATG: seen the PSC-1000 from Patriot? f-cpu.tux.org sorry. post it to the list if it is good... :) I had it in ~fare/libre-logiciel.html, but you typed it before I could 03:50pm hum i'm reading up on visual programming languages. a lot of them seem to be for the mac. unfortuantely. !carter.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT moore.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo 04:00pm !koontz.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT moore.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo wizual pogroming? how wuld dat werk? you connect the pieces of your program together with a gui 04:10pm hmmz... never tried it... i couldn't find a free one.. -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250127.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 'lo * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations tcn!" :-) 04:20pm Tril: typical kind of syntax-oriented stuff -- concentrate on syntax instead of semantics don't bring much i'm going to start programming tunes in common lisp right now is there a multi-line comment character? good luk * AlonzoTG/#tunes is going to specify mine first... howdy -:- _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations _BC!" :-) <_BC> Hi all <_BC> Thanks alonzo hey, what's up? <_BC> I came from my interest in TUNES. :) kool also see my site at atc.peon.net/~cyborg/ are sparse arrays a scheme thing? <_BC> it is an interesting project you people have here. kool... <_BC> ? me check ~cyborg/ ? bc: if you want to.. his page is about stuff like creating the Borg and my OS... :) Tril: sparse arrays.. that's a general concept <_BC> kool :) in what manner does this "borg" technology appear? tcn: not much is up tcn: yeah, but i can't find a specific reference to them in common lisp Tril: that's when you have a large array where only a few elements are actually used still translating my meta-/etc into guile although now comes the real stuff Fare: your reflective-/etc? <_BC> Guile is being used in Tunes? (I would say 'I like it') bc: fare's /etc isn't directly related to TUNES.. but the concept is <_BC> tril:i see <_BC> How long has tunes been in development? about 10 minutes 04:30pm <_BC> i see <_BC> Amazing headway in a mere 10 minutes! Actually it's more like 10 years :) i'm developing it right now :) <_BC> I've also been romancing the ideas of making my own OS over the past 8 or so years. <_BC> I'm sortof considering joining the team as a small-time contrib... ahh.. found it #| comment |# (multi-lines) _BC: I'm working on the assembly language stuff over here <_BC> You colaborating development over irc? bc: help however you want :) we collaborate development using "the Force" <_BC> heheh. I see bc: what programming languages you like? Tril: not reflective, but meta the correct answer is "none" Tril: and guile has drawbacks I'm using as little of it as possible, so as to be able to easily port to a Tunes Scheme dialect later Hey, I got a mini-scheme interpreter to use as an example <_BC> Mostly C[++], some asm, the odd scripting lang, basic's, I'm still learning new languages. Interested in Python, Forth. 04:40pm