IRC log started Wed Apr 14 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0414 -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- mungo [sandan@cs6p14.dial.cistron.nl] has joined #Tunes # Appears as ARMANDO. -:- mungo [sandan@cs6p14.dial.cistron.nl] has left #Tunes [] 02:00am hi! -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-126-196.bellatlantic.net] has joined #TUNES 04:00am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-120-37.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes :deb 07:30am -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has left #Tunes [] -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective Computing System -:- binEng [bineng@dialup118-4-42.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes gakuk! hi yay! 09:30am I got me a printout of the listing of the MINIX library! :))))) * binEng/#tunes has the book I have version 2.0! =P huh? ATG: so what? so what is the solution fare: Its another miniscule step towards actually finishing the prototype of my OS... 09:40am -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- s720 [s720@rovmaur.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- s720 is now known as tmf hi! helllllooo? 11:40am this is _not_ funny!!! Say hi, and I'll ask a intriguing question :-| 11:50am om! 12:10pm Considered a howdy of some kind. So, why is it that, when I want to present my project to a professor guy at my university - the resepond is alway alot of patronising crap, and neverer anything close to insightfull constructive critisism??? What am I doing wrong here??? Is this the genereal situation, and how do I go about getting beyond it?? It just pisses me so much off!!! hehe hehe fucking what? AlonzoTG, are working under some supervisor in an official way, or is your effort on a private basis? private. me too ( obviously ). The problem is my finansial situation when the summer starts - it ends :( suckey... 12:20pm I'm gonna start my own kompanie in about 9 months... got a lotta studing to du... what will it do? fix 'doze y2k problem? nah. make it slightly phaster and crash less... good luck!!! why not make an entilely new OS?!?! woow, what a grreat idea! u kidding? as in: I think a new os is an idea, or as in: what's tunes anyways? no, I'm serious as hell! u see the barriers to entering into the market through the front door is too high so sneek in the back! yeah, stick a bomb in 'em and blow the fuckers sky hi!!! :) only, gently! pull da rug rite out from under em! yeah, yeah! 12:30pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (gone off to ZSNES land...) -:- smoke [smoke@195.96.123.3] has joined #tunes helo What actually IS tunes? -:- binEng [bineng@dialup244-1-40.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes Wow, look at Tril! ;) 01:10pm Gakuk hi, fare fare, I'm looking at lisp now, and --- I don't see the attraction --- it's not all lists at all!!! hey, ain't that tmf? jup fare, shouldn't it be all lists? what's the difference between lisp and a basic with lists? :-| I'm completely lagged! tmf: read SICP why? then read papers by jmc why? lisp is a language that insists on semantics and insight rather than syntax assembler does that - but without the lists, though! I must be missing some huge point here!!! no, the asm insists on the syntax, and lets you emulate the semantics tmf: well, there are plenty of courses; see the comp.lang.scheme and comp.lang.lisp FAQs semantics are always emulated! sometimes they are directly expressed and that's a *big* difference like night and day I truly do not see the distinction! well, program a bit in VHDL, then try LISP again. VHDL? a VLSI description language 01:30pm if you prefer, program with transistors in your garage. ok, something bad - and then lisp . AND gates allowed. sure, but then basic would be rocking oh, you can even try assembler. assembler is fine:) tmf: then try basic. I mean, real 1960 BASIC tmf: well either you decide that all languages are equal, or else they are not Surely, there is some difference between the expressiveness in languages, but where does it all point to? and if they are not, there remains to understand what makes a language better suited to some tasks than others. tmf: it all points to LISP being much more expressive than most languages. but noone knows why, right? of course people know why. You just are not willing to read on why. -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Too much interest in unnecessary phone calls here, if you ask me) did you read my paper on metaprogramming? so, teoretically, in a relative scale, lisp could be the transistors, and something else could be just better maybe. definately!!! if we don't know why, that is! but before you reach it, you must know LISP to do at least as good. no, you must know lisp in order to continue in _that_ direction. But there is know real indication that that is it! only that : currently we think that lisp is kinda kool. you must know everything that there is to know in every language, i.e. every major paradigm. I believe that I am at least smart enough to do comparisons, and lisp or clos does not impress - I can do it more elegantly, compact, general and efficient in my system. and, whats wonderful, they are all expressible in LISP! they're all expressible in eachother!!! if you know Prolog (and you should), then Screamer will impress you. tmf: no they are not. They are all *implementable* in each other, and that's *quite* different. ok, I agree! all languages are expressible in TML, too - and that's a ontology with three words! or three things, rather ( he doen't know that, you're thinking :) 01:40pm now, even among reflective languages (those able to _express_ any other language), there are differences. sure, but tml is a trick:) among them, these differences are only a constant factor, but this constant factor matters, for it can be *quite* large. LISP is _not_ a trick. lisp is a hack It's based on deep ideas, and has a very orthogonal design. quite deep and somewhat ontogonal - it just doesn't cut it! well, you should definitely read SICP, if you're up to it. SICP? i heard SICP was Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ * Fare/#Tunes pats abi on the head * Fare/#Tunes wonders if abi is a tla at least, fare isn't an etla (that I know of) is tunes an eetla, or a retla (r for recursive) I fell off * Fare/#Tunes helps tmf stand back up fare, if I want fundings or whatever, and think that ( if I wasn't a mere student ) I could get it, then which channels do I go thought? uh? can you rephrase that? well, I am working on TML\TOOL, and I want to get off social wellfare 01:50pm I believe that, if I could get my idea through to the right people, then they would be more than happy to give me the cash! well, you should get someone interested in your work in a university or in the industry I try, but I just get alot of patronising bull at the uni patronising bull? or you may developa prototype while working on something else maybe not unrelated I have a working protoitype but I haven't gotten to really demonstrate it for instance, pick something really difficult about TML, and continue your studies just in the area of this difficulty have you run in any limitation about TML? be it in design or implementation? it always stops at tml, because I can't explain no I mean, a technical problem? limitations: there is one interesting destinction between requirements of .. I still didn't understand how TML was but another m4 it to be turing-complete and to implement a reflective system so are FORTH and LISP. (and even m4) (although m4, in a *very* nasty way) so what makes TML better than m4, FORTH, or LISP? (maybe TeX also is somehow reflective?) You need to see TOOL. if you want to interest academics, something like formal semantics would help. It's truly beautiful with all the OO crap so neatly implemented on a few lines of code! If you want to interest hackers, an target application would help. if you want to interest industrials, you might have to become buzzword-compliant. tmf: smalltalk, SELF, scheme, etc, allow OO to be implemented on a few lines of code, too! It is commandlined interactive with transparent filehandling I don't mean like CLOS - that is not a system. ut is just the collection of functions that the eventually needed to fake OO. well, so are bash, zsh, perl, python, guile, clisp, and many other! BUT NOT TOOL! what don't you like about CLOS??? 02:00pm It's just alot! All those words that mean nothing in OO - implementation specifics emerge on the somewhat crooked surface. uh? nobody forces you to use slots directly, if that's what you mean, for instance. In TOOL only the spesicif terms that are used to talk about the abstract theme of OO is there I don't see what you mean about CLOS. Can you be more precise? (pick Dylan, if you think CLOS is too complicated) (or even, pick a lesser Scheme OO system) (or even, the Perl OO system) Pick life, and a big fucking television:) You would understand if you would bother to try TOOL It's not a language defined by the syntax of all the primitive stuff, it's a language to talk about object. hey there's life here I downloaded it, long ago, but the doc was almost inexistant, and the source very difficult to understand hello. not even guidelines smoke: gakuk! Like I said, I have extreme difficulty comunicating my ideas - but they are working, and I think it would be easier to explain if I _ever_ got in a feedback situation! I feedback is not exhaustive listing of related work! tmf: I told you to explain TML, and give guidelines to understanding its principles also, the best way would be to extract formal semantics for TML's core. 02:10pm You see, that there is something uncommunicatable here. Because it is a language about languages, there is some paradox. How do I extract formal semantics * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 113 hrs 12 min 38 secs >>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 924124588 193622 from #TUNES Tril!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tril is a security person. for tunes, though ,not unix ;) Fare??????????????????????????????? Tril: btw, what's a command to rebuild the vut.*.db? cat virtusertable vut.*|makemap hash virtusertable tmf: you read a few papers on formal semantics (either operational or denotational or whatelse) for reverse, cat genericstable gen.*|makemap hash genericstable and you do the same for core TML. that's what they say Tril: why not have a script in ~root/bin do that? like, copy and modify junk.script for root? (or even use the same) (maybe not, for security reasons, tho) it's easier to remember the command than to keep track of a script? Plus, nobody ever needed to do it but me :) I'd rather have a /root/.alias containing it. Tril: we're two, so the script is better. Tril: I prefer a script, since I use zsh when I'm root :) uh, YOU can make a script :) go ahead! tmf: who "they"? tmf: I mean, if there's a communication gap, you're the one to make it easier to cross tmf: is TML a string-replacement language? tmf: you could express it as a rewrite system, then TML is, yes, mostly "they" are professor people at my uni. I try to get it defined as a major:) TOOL is really quite separate from TML, though (and I didn't learn TOOL, yet) tmf: if you use rewrite logic, why not? TML is a language which talks about contexts '()' and messages between them '<>'. Contexts are defined by the terms '[]' that exist in them. tmf: note, however, that you might get *much* more efficient by using a ADT-based rewrite system than a string-based one (or use one of those super-efficient existing rewrite logic processors) 02:20pm TOOL, may be a ADT based rewrite system if I understand ADT-b-r-w-s one is built in LORIA (France) by the Kirchners and they team, and uses CAML TML is really too simple to improve - it is there. another one is built in SRI (California) by Meseguer and his team, and stresses reflection, too and they built their own OO system easily over it, too -b-r-w-s ??? based rewrite system ) tmf: you just replace nodes in a tree instead of substrings in a string *much* more efficient, and a *much* cleaner formal semantics, too! -:- Iepos [root@d16.t1-6.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES iepos! (maybe in a graph rather than tree, if you manage object identity) gakuk! hey, could i have some web space? i was thinking of writing a doc describing my ideas for a logic system ... i used to have a page with my ISP, but something is wrong with their server now ... yeah, iepos, i"ll set you up a shell account (with web space) if you tell me what login you want. yes, but the rewriting is done abstractly. like a call. Messages between contexts does the job of "creating data". okay, i guess "iepos" will work Tril: after the makemap hash foo, need I do anything else? fare: Nope! not even restart sendmail? not when you just change a .db file if you change a sendmail.cw or whatnot then you do restart it. http://www.sendmail.org/virtual-hosting.html is a good overview of the whole process. thanks! * Fare/#Tunes thinks qmail is simpler, after all probably. but I learned sendmail first :) have you tried ssl-telnet? err, learned how to do the things I need to do with it.. no one can ever learn all of sendmail! yes, that's what I had installed before I knew about ssh i think it's not enabled right now I'm gone. Bye! tmf: good luck! btw, ssl-telnet stuff is US-Export restricted, so don't download it from bespin! thanks -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Leaving) tril: so is ssh, you know! yeah... fuck moronic politicians 02:30pm just think.. if when I download from a foreign site, and it crosses into the US and back out again before coming to me, then (someone?) broke the law. scary! but if I bomb thousands of innocent people, I'm a hero! Hum. Something's rotten in the kingdom of Denmark. Tril: complains a lot about duplicate keys! what? yeah, because of ~ files, included in the * pattern! i'm lost. what are you doing? /root/bin/rootfu oh, makemap now it's ok death to all foo~ and #foo# files! rm -r *~ \#* rm -r * ~ oops heh heh nah, I have aliases to do that, that can't be mistyped 02:40pm I mean, that are far enough from any other useful command so as not to do anything wrong unintentionally ftp seems to work (not that I never erase wrong files) Iepos: what for? To recover files? telnet also Tril: have you tried ssl-telnet? Fare: It was on bespin during Slackware... it's in /old/usr/local/lib/ssl/... "bad password" try again! too simple Useless, compared to SSH ummmmmmmmmmmm hmmm ok but wasn't it real free software? (at work, we're considering either ssh or ssl-something to deploy on our thousands of Point-of-sale) http://psych.psy.uq.oz.au/~ftp/Crypto/ okay everything seems to work. thanks... I think it's not free, but I'm not sure * Fare/#Tunes wonders whether to go debian instead of what? RedHat yes Tril: what about slackware? it means I'll have to convert my /etc files, and also my meta-/etc scripts maybe a good opportunity to rewrite my meta-/etc in guile... Slackware doesn't put all configuration in /etc, like Debian does nicely slackware is the bare minimum package system, but mostly you have to compile and install everything yourself (because not many packages are there) no dependencies!! you must know what depends on what yeah, I know. I used SLS first, then Slackware-ELF beta. If I achieve something clean with my meta-etc, maybe I will publish it or maybe linuxconf does that already? linuxconf unimpressed me in general, but I didn't really use it enough to tell (that's bad english grammar, should be "didn't impress") but it's a cute slang, imho not in /old/usr/local/li/ssl/ local/ssl..sorry why are you looking ok, sorry, found it is it based on a real programming language? which? well, which is what 02:50pm well, which is it ? :-) SSL looks free for the most part, with an advertising clause. looks fine to me. -:- SignOff Iepos: #TUNES (Iepos) I have nothing against advertising clause, except when they force you to transform software into nagware. is linuxconf based on a real programming language? checking.. c++ ouch. let's forget it, then 03:00pm 80,000 lines I'll rewrite what I need in guile. for bespin?? for my localhost first. working on tunes would be better.. :) well, that could be training for tunes: I'd only use a guile subset easily reusable, and that could replace all the ugly make+zsh stuff we have now hum. Also, I've been formalizing the notion of a cache, and of persistent data, in quite a satisfactory way but I don't know if anyone else did that earlier. Maybe write another paper but alone, I just can't track references!!! -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Tril] by king.openprojects.net Tril: what are you working on currently? reading my mail, then off to do homework general web viewing in other words, nothing! 03:10pm I just finished a major presentation for one class, so I'm less busy than I have been lately for tunes? I'm going to rewrite my messy spec soon what did you present? the class is about coming of age initiation rites worldwide, my group presented initiations of various African cultures the other groups will do other areas of the world how violent was that? it varies. some are brutally painful, but others are based on ridicule instead. * Fare/#Tunes ought to repartition his HD to allow for more hardswap (used for pausing the laptop to disk), and intends installing debian something makes me laugh: black americans claiming that islam is a "natural" religion for africans, whereas the arabs enslaved the black people just as much as the europeans did (only, with less success) 03:20pm All the groups we studied had ancestor worship, not Islam. of course they did! ancestor worship is the natural religion of man. ancestors and spirits of nature. however, we read a book where french missionaries stole children and taught them Christianity. sure they did, too. which was more violent than the village, it seemed. well, sometimes, we mustn't be proud of our ancestors, it seems :) Among my distant ancestors, a few have been slave dealers :( :( :( :( (a fourth of them were peasants, then military; a fourth of them had a tradition of medical doctors; half of them were vietnamese literates and officials) 03:30pm gotta go (sleep) bye 03:50pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-127-157.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes om om 04:10pm -:- Netjoined: asimov.openprojects.net devlin.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes eek 04:30pm -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) <_QZ> does anyone here have cmucl installed? -:- Connection closed from clarke.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from vinge.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is vinge.openprojects.net[gateway.teksouth.com], running version u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 (from vinge.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Mon Jan 25 1999 at 07 12:10 EST(from vinge.openprojects.net) -:- vinge.openprojects.net u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(8)] 3% -:- [global users on irc(93)] 35% -:- [invisible users on irc(171)] 65% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 5% -:- [total users on irc(264)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 8 users per server) -:- [total channels created(66)] (avg. 4 users per channel) !vinge.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 16 (15 clients) -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- norton.openprojects.net That server doesn't exist -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.cx " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.cx] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by Fare [Wed Apr 14 10:13:18 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:7)] [ TUNES ] [ Fare ] [ _QZ ] [ AlonzoTG ] [@Tril ] [ smoke ] [ timestamp ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 9.053 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- abi [abi@bespin.cx] has joined #tunes 04:40pm -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250096.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey guys, anyone here? I take that as a no <_QZ> hey bonjour, _QZ <_QZ> do u have cmucl or pliant? 05:10pm no, but I have gcl <_QZ> gcl? gnu cl <_QZ> geez pliant finally installed <_QZ> friggin thing wants to be placed in /pliant haha later -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) 05:20pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-125-20.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 2 hrs 36 min 26 secs om -:- mode/#Tunes [+m] by Tril -:- mode/#Tunes [+vv Fare _QZ] by Tril -:- mode/#Tunes [+vv abi timestamp] by Tril -:- mode/#Tunes [+v Tril_] by Tril 07:10pm -:- mode/#Tunes [-m] by Tril <_QZ> uhh 07:20pm <_QZ> what was that about? "OM" <_QZ> ah <_QZ> do u have cmucl? no but I could install it in a few seconds (debian) <_QZ> do i need lisp installed to install it? to compile it? I dunno I just use debian binary packages * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] 07:30pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0415 IRC log ended Thu Apr 15 00:00:00 1999