IRC log started Sat Apr 10 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0410
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* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> tt QZ: www.qzx.com/myass.txt 
-:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org/> 0 QZ: www.qzx.com/myass.txt 
04:20am
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<Fare> gakuk, smkl!
<smkl> hello Fare
<Fare> wanna write a dumb compiler?
<Fare> we need some infrastructure for retroscheme/retroforth...
<smkl> what would it be like? (but i really don't have any time)
08:50am
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<smkl> hello binEng
<binEng> hi
<abi> bonjour, binEng
<binEng> don't you think abi can be frustrating sometimes?
10:10am
<binEng> Is there any way I can redirect my bespin mail to another address?
>>> binEng [bineng@dialup59-2-11.swipnet.se] requested PING 923764509 from #tunes
10:20am
<binEng> sleepy, eh?
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10:30am
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<binEng> hi
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11:40am
<binEng> oh well
11:50am
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<FareWell> Hum
12:30pm
<smkl> hello Fare
<FareWell> I sometimes have problems on the interrenet, like, today for instance
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12:40pm
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<ProGuy_DK> hello again
01:00pm
* ProGuy_DK/#tunes feels lonely
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<Fare> hi
<ProGuy> This channel looks pretty dead compared to yesterday ;)
<Fare> resurrect it!
01:10pm
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<ProGuy> Hmm....
<ProGuy> Tril, U here?
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<smkl> hello ProGuy
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<Fare> this guys never knows whether to stay or to go.
01:20pm
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<ProGuy> Hello again ;)
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01:30pm
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<Iepos> hello
<abi> hey, Iepos
* binEng/#tunes squeezes in and greets everyone
* ProGuy/#tunes greets back
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<Pauldoo> Howdy!
<binEng> hi Pauldoo
<Fare> binEng: echo "my@adress.else.wr" > .forward
<Pauldoo> you seen my program, right?
<binEng> Fare: tnx
<Fare> which program?
<Pauldoo> the air currents one
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<Iepos> hmmmmm ... air currents program ... ?
01:50pm
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<Iepos> greetings, qz.
<_QZ> hello
<abi> hoy, _QZ
<Fare> gakuk!
<_QZ> wow another full house today
<binEng> yeah, gakuk
<Iepos> gakuk ?
<abi> i heard gakuk was a word fare made up for greeting people, that's what he told me
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> abi you are weird
<abi> ...but abi is the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik...
<Iepos> okay ...
<binEng> :)
<_QZ> haha
<Iepos> fare, are you here?
<Fare> no, I'm not
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> well i was going to say i'm going to get coq
<Iepos> it sounds interesting
<Fare> but <hush>don't tell anyone!</hush>
<Fare> coq is very interesting
<_QZ> Iepos: yer gonna get coq?
<binEng> What?? Is Fare here?
<Iepos> yes ... it is downloading now
<Iepos> is there anything else like it that you know of?
<_QZ> is that pronounced cocks or C.O.Q? ;)
<Fare> cock
<Fare> like a rooster
<_QZ> or a penis
<Fare> what you think depends on your own disturbed mind.
<Fare> Iepos: I had a pointer to a page to lots of other formal specification/verification systems...
<Fare> Iepos: maybe you should contribute a sectino of the Review project?
<Iepos> sure
<Iepos> what pointer?
<_QZ> well i gotta clean my gun, bbiaf
<Fare> hum can't remember. Should be either on the languages page or on my pointer page.. both very big :( :(
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> where is your pointer page?
02:00pm
<Iepos> oh i think i found it
<Iepos> hey, whatever happened to Brian's arrow system?
<Iepos> is everyone gone? :-(
* binEng/#tunes found his way back
02:10pm
<binEng> Iepos: I think Brian was told to write something real doc on Arrows, explaining it closer.
<binEng> s/doc//
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> oh so is he still busy writing a real doc?
<binEng> I guess. We've mainly seen sketches of thoughts from him... writing something decent could keep him seriously busy :)
<Iepos> well ...
<binEng> If a dir is writeable for everyone, can't they do more or less whatever they want in there then?
<Iepos> i'm not sure... Are you talking about unix?
<binEng> yes
<Iepos> if so, then yes ...
<binEng> aha
<Iepos> but i think they have to have access to the enclosing directories also
<Iepos> not sure
<binEng> how do you mean? subdirs?
02:20pm
<Fare> Iepos: brian wrote a paper recently. Mail him for latest version
<Iepos> yes
<Iepos> i think that in order to access A/B, you have to be able to access A.
<binEng> can anybody confirm that?
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> coq is still downloading...
<Iepos> i found that formal methods page
<Iepos> it was linked to from the languages page
<Iepos> the unix file modes thing?
<Iepos> i just did a little test and that seems to be right
<Iepos> wait though
<Iepos> oh, it looks like they only to have execute access to the enclosing directories
<Iepos> no need for write access
<binEng> not? that's good
<Fare> Iepos: A/B ???
<Fare> to access A/B, you need right x on A, and usual right on B
<Iepos> B is a file or directory within A.
<binEng> Then I can remove the group write access to my homedir on bespin, and just have it on html
<ProGuy> Has tril been here?
<Fare> to ls a directory, you need right r, tho
<Fare> so x w/o r only works for files whose name you know in advance
<Fare> Iepos: which link was that?
<Iepos> weirdness
<Iepos> link?
<Fare> Iepos: care to sort the Languages page?
<Iepos> ummmm..... just a sec
<Iepos> sure...
<Iepos> I've never used this Wiki wiki thing though...
02:30pm
<ProGuy> Does someone know how to make server side includes with apache??
<Iepos> Oh the link was in the languages page under Programming With Proofs
<Iepos> not me.
<ProGuy> Hmm... maybe on www.apache.org ;)
<binEng> Hey, I can't chmod my homedir!
<Fare> do you own it?
<binEng> tink so
02:40pm
<binEng> ok, it worked
<Fare> why be paranoid?
<binEng> paranoid? integrity :)
<Fare> just put private files in ~/private
<Fare> and be done
<Fare> you know, root can read your files, anyway!
<Fare> chmod a+r ~ won't hurt
<binEng> not that I have any private files...
<Fare> chmod a+r ~ means I won't turn root when I want to look at abi/ or html/
<binEng> huh?
<binEng> I didn't understand that...
<Iepos> coq is still coming... how big is this thing ??? (!)
<Fare> dunno. Browse by FTP to know
<Iepos> well almost 6mb done now
<Iepos> i'm reading the tutorial
<Iepos> but it is confusing to me
<binEng> Iepos: welcome to Tunes
<Iepos> every expression has one distinct type.
02:50pm
<Fare> s/distinct/unique/
<Fare> (in Coq)
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> that seems backwards to me for expressions to have types
<Iepos> rather than types to contain expressions
<Iepos> but i guess it doesn't matter
<Iepos> O is the symbol for zero?
<Iepos> strange... there are 3 special types Set, Prop, and Type.
<Iepos> what are their types? Type?
<Fare> yup, O and S are constructors for integers
<Fare> Type is really Type_n where n is an integer.
<Iepos> constructors?
<Iepos> are constructors like functions?
<Fare> this is explained in the tutorial/manual/etc
<Iepos> heh heh... i should read some more
<Fare> constructors are basic functions
<Iepos> but it gets really confusing
<Fare> like, cons
<Iepos> does every function take one parameter?
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<Iepos> t(E) is the type of E?
<Downix> hewwo
<Iepos> greetings...
<Iepos> if t(E) is the type of E, then why is the command Check necessary
<Downix> ok, be back later
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (AtlantiS(v1.3b): lost in time ... [6.02.97])
<Fare> there is no such thing as an internal command to get t(E) afaik.
<Fare> (where did you find that t(E) syntax?)
<Fare> I haven't used Coq for a few releases, tho
<Iepos> oh they said it at the beginning of the tutorial
<Iepos> "Every valid expression e ... is associated with a specification, itself a valid expression, called its type t(E)
03:00pm
<Iepos> oooh ... it is finished.
<Fare> ain't that t(E) just informal writing valid in the tutorial?
<Fare> I don't remember such an operator in the language itself (although it could be done, since types are static)
<Iepos> i think you're right
* Fare/#Tunes has a new web page: ~fare/penguindex.html
<Fare> (silly, but fun)
<Iepos> wait, i thought static types meant that you couldn't get them at runtime...
<Iepos> it looks like types are first-class though, i guess.
<Iepos> it says types are expressions, at least.
<Fare> types are first-class, but not fully reified
<Fare> (just like functions)
<Fare> you cannot metaprogram them, only apply them or so.
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> so types can be used as parameters to functions?
<Fare> yes they can
<Iepos> okay....
<Iepos> it's installed now...
<Iepos> i'm trying to get it working
<Iepos> coqtop seems to work...
03:10pm
<Iepos> gives me a prompt, Coq >
<Fare> good!
<Fare> which OCaml version are you using, btw?
<Iepos> none
<Iepos> i downloaded the binaries
<Iepos> so, does this thing have arithmetic operators built-in (+,-,*,/) ?
<binEng> do I need . or something in the path to be able to execute programs in the current dir?
<Iepos> or do i have to make them myself using S and O ?
<Fare> no builtin arithmetics
<ProGuy> yep, bineng ./
<Fare> (ouch)
<Iepos> oh
<binEng> that explain something...
<Fare> although maybe someone has written some OCAML to read numbers as ciffers and dump S (S (S ... 0) ...)) stuff
<Fare> or maybe someone has axiomatized base-n or base-ten arithmetics?
<Iepos> hmmm....
<binEng> How do I add that to the path (I feel completely computer-illiterate right now)
<Fare> add what to what path?
<binEng> ./
<Fare> binEng: do NOT add . to the $PATH: it's a security hazard!
<ProGuy> to the path enviroment variable?? NOOT
<binEng> oh?
* binEng/#tunes hasn't a clue
<Fare> makes me laugh: have ~ go-r, and add . to the PATH !!!
* ProGuy/#tunes neither, but he has heard that thousand of times now
<binEng> Fare: it was g-w
<binEng> So I should rather put the programs in special dirs, then?
<Fare> it it was g+w with group users, then that was bad. But having it 711 instead of 755 is paranoid
<Fare> whereas . in PATH is suicide
<Fare> (welcome, viruses!)
<binEng> ok I've understood that's wrong, so what's right?
<Fare> echo "#!/bin/sh\necho '* *' > ~/.rhosts ; exec /bin/ls $@" > ./ls
<binEng> uh
<binEng> what would that do?
03:20pm
<ProGuy> Fare, .rhosts files are security leaks too!
<Fare> PG: duh! I know!
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<Fare> hi, robbie
<Iepos> Fare, what is "Intro"?
<Rob-> hi
<abi> hi, Rob-
<Fare> Intro is a tactic to introduce hypotheses from the expression into the environment
<Fare> to prove Gamma |- A->B , try to prove Gamme, a:A |- B
<Fare> Intros repeats Intro until it cannot anymore
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<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<xnops> 3,11if u want some new cool 10,2full games for free go to http://deh.webjump.com
<Iepos> hmm ... i don't think i understand. I better read some more
-:- SignOff xnops: #TUNES (Excess Flood)
<binEng> what a looser
03:30pm
<Fare> Iepos: read the tutorial and the manual
<ProGuy> Damn, I hate those peopl!
<Iepos> okay... i'm reading ....
<Fare> they don't deserve your hate.
<Fare> (or your attention or your anything)
<Iepos> Hmmm... is there an AND or an OR?
<Fare> uh, where?
<Iepos>  in Coq.
<smkl> they are defined with induction
<Iepos> ?
<Fare> wheren in Coq???
<Fare> oh, now I understand the question
03:40pm
<Iepos> Coq is for helping you prove things, right?
<Fare> yes, they are defined with induction
<Iepos> How can you get it to prove that propositions X or Y are true.
<Iepos> ?
<Iepos> i mean that prop X or Y is true...
<Fare> there is a A/\B for and and A\/B for or
<Iepos> oooooooooookay.
<Fare> beware that this is constructive logic
<Fare> A\/B is provable if either A is provable or B is provable
<Iepos> yes....
<Iepos> Hmm... it looks like you have to walk Coq through the proving process, right?
<Iepos> it doesn't prove things by itself. ?
<Iepos> it just makes sure you're doing it right?
<smkl> it can prove many things automatically using tactics
<Fare> it also has a tactic for tautologies in intuitionistic propositional logic
<Iepos> oh ... 
<Iepos> this is getting scary!  ( :-) )
<Iepos> so, how would i get it to prove something like ... ((X->Y)/\(Y->Z))->X->Z  ?
<Fare> Tauto.
<Iepos> oh
<Iepos> i'll try that... just a sec.
<Fare> btw, the "natural" way in Coq for that is
<Iepos> wow it worked!
<Fare> (X->Y)->(Y->Z)->X->Z
03:50pm
<Iepos> no need for extra ()s
<Iepos> no and
<Iepos> yes that makes sense.
<Fare>  /\ is deprecated left to an arrow
<Fare> dunno what's the "standard" way if any to remove it automatically together with other hypotheses
<Iepos> So what kinds of thing could Tauto not be used to prove?
<Iepos> it seems like everything that could be proven is a tautology.
<binEng> cya later
<Iepos> okay, bye...
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (going down... stand by)
<Fare> Iepos: things that use quantification, for instance
<Fare> Iepos: since Tauto works in propositional logic only.
<Iepos> okay... example?
<Iepos> i need to stop bugging you and read the manual :-)
<Fare> I doubt it can prove: (x,y,z,n:Nat)(lt (S (S O)) n)->(lt O x)->(lt O y)->(lt O z)->(not ((add (pow x n) (pow y n))==(pow z n)))
<Fare> ;->
<Iepos> that's scary....
<Iepos> i think i see ....
<Iepos> what about something like (x:nat)(gt (S x) x)  ?
<Iepos> how would you prove that?
04:00pm
<Iepos> Tauto doesn't work...
<Iepos> whoa this is confusing...
<Iepos> ~~X is not the same as X ?
<Iepos> everyone is gone again :~(
-:- SignOff Iepos: #TUNES (Iepos)
04:10pm
-:- SignOff Rob-: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations)
<ProGuy> I will be leaving now, cya later!
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04:40pm
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<Tril> /back
>>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 923795243 369659 from #TUNES
06:50pm
<_QZ> coq?
<abi> coq is a proof assistant, http://coq.inria.fr/
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (foo) [BX-MsgLog Off]
07:00pm
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<lar1> hey
<_QZ> hey
<abi> hoy, _QZ
<lar1> _qz:  Would you look at a snippit of my ASM code and see if I got it optimized as much as I can later?
<_QZ> sure
<lar1> Cool!  Thanks
<lar1> hehe... that text is funny
<_QZ> what text?
<lar1> www.qzx.com/myass.txt
<_QZ> hah
-:- _QZ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: www.qzx.com/myass.txt 
-:- _QZ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Millenia Year Application Software System -- www.qzx.com/myass.txt
<lar1> Hows BRiX going?
<_QZ> brix is doing great
<lar1> Cool
<_QZ> i discovered i really do need non-direct page mappings
<_QZ> so now i get to modify my paging, yippy
<lar1> Hehe, sounds fun
<lar1> I think I am starting to undersand most of this stuff
<_QZ> what stuff?
10:30pm
<lar1> PMODE, and all its... hrmmm... features  Like paging and rings
<lar1> have you done any tesla coil stuff?
<_QZ> yes
<lar1> Sweet!
<lar1> I haven't gotten any of my coils to work right
<lar1> They light up the tube but they dont throw arcs :(  I thinks my cap is not the right value
<lar1> err, a florecent tube
<_QZ> what voltage?
<lar1> 8 kV @ 45 mA
<lar1> A NST
10:40pm
<lar1> c = 1 / (2*pi*Z*.00006) or c = 1 / (2*pi*z*60)?
11:00pm
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _QZ[p0wer.qzx.com])
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<lar1> What kind of primary do uou use?
<_QZ> a nice heavy gauge gold wire
<lar1> But like Helical, Archimedies Sprial or what?
<_QZ> do i look stupid
<_QZ> i am not the kinda person that winds shit
11:10pm
<lar1> You don't wind your own??
<lar1> That is 1/2.... welll 1/4 the fun!!
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<_QZ> boy this is fun
<lar1> Problem with p0wer?
<_QZ> no, just my connection
<_QZ> pause lag
<lar1> What kind of connection do you have?
<_QZ> well its upstream
<_QZ> my isps connection is pause lagging
<lar1> ISDN?
<_QZ> i have 33.6
<_QZ> they have a T3
<lar1> qzx is run on a 33.6?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> www and ftp are on a T3
<lar1> So yer isp serves your www and ftp?
<_QZ> p0wer, borg and the others are on a 33.6
<_QZ> yes
11:20pm
<lar1> What do you think the fastet connection I could get for $30 a month is?
<_QZ> 512k?
<lar1> What kind of line?
<_QZ> dsl
<_QZ> it might cost $40
<_QZ> 256k dsl is $20
<lar1> Damn.. when will DSL be in my area.... I want it I want it I want it!! 
<_QZ> 14.4-56k, single channel isdn and 256k dsl are all $19/mo at aros
<_QZ> and dsl is a 24/7 connection
<_QZ> oh and u gotta pay yer telco another $20-40/mo for the line
<_QZ> i think its $20 here
<_QZ> for uswest
<lar1> so its really 60
<_QZ> im a lucky one tho and live 1 foot over the 9000 foot limit for isdn/dsl :)
<lar1> hehe u are serious?
<_QZ> ya $60 and u also have to have an existing voice line
<_QZ> well maybe 10 feet
<_QZ> s/10/100/
<lar1> that sucks
<_QZ> dsl is available in surrounding cities but not here yet
<_QZ> but when it does come i will still be over 9000 feet so i will never have it
<_QZ> my lines have more load coils than a load coil store :)
<lar1> What do you think of cable modems?
<_QZ> cable modems are good if yer neighbors dont know about them :)
<lar1> heh
<_QZ> think of it like a home lan using a modem, the more family members u got accessing the net at once the slower it gets
<_QZ> cable modem is like a bigger home lan with a T1
<lar1> How big is each area?  255 houses?
<_QZ> dont know
<lar1> Hmm... sounds like I will be with 56k for a while...
<_QZ> i cant even get 56k
<_QZ> 31.2 is max
11:30pm
<lar1> I get 46 at best 42 is my avgrage
<lar1> Woah!  I am at 48 now
<_QZ> i should feel lucky that i connect at 31.2 99% of the time and 28.8 the other 1%
<lar1> Noisy line?
<_QZ> no, its just hard to carry a modulated signal over string and tin cans :)
<lar1> heh
<lar1> do u know analog circut theroy too, or just digital?
<_QZ> i live over 15 miles from my isp and i live about 9100 feet from the telco CO here
<lar1> ouch
<lar1> I feel the hurt
<_QZ> the line is loaded with load coils to get the signal to do the 9100 feet so the modulated signal cant go very high
<lar1> Sounds like its time for an RF modem!
<_QZ> i was thinkin laser :)
<lar1> that too
<_QZ> maybe a nice megawatt maser
<lar1> megawatt.... I want a megawatt lazer.... I have a 5mW HeNe... 
<_QZ> dont think id have any signal degradation with that
<_QZ> maser is better
<lar1> maser?
<abi> i heard maser was better
<_QZ> abi: forget maser
<abi> _QZ: I forgot maser
<_QZ> maser is like a laser but uses microwave instead of light
<lar1> cool
11:40pm
<lar1> do u know analog circut theroy too, or just digital?
<_QZ> both
<lar1> Know of any good teach your self analog circut theory books?
<_QZ> uhh
<lar1> or not
<_QZ> i dont see any reason u couldnt teach yerself using college books
<lar1> They are pretty dry
<_QZ> i didnt find them 'dry' :)
<lar1> I have to read the page 4-5 times to vaugely grasp the concept... hand me a schematic, a breadboard, a vom and explain the circut I grasp the concept much faster
11:50pm
<_QZ> no
<lar1> Why not?
<lar1> I am a hands on person... I do math I know I can do in my head on paper or a calculator
<_QZ> saying voltage moves and a resistor slows it down is not a good way to learn
<_QZ> u need to understand the fundamental concepts
<_QZ> why/how the voltage moves and stuff like that
<lar1> Those books don't do a good job of teaching a 13 year old much... ugh
<_QZ> i was ready them when i was 13
<lar1> Did you understand?
<_QZ> i knew how transistors worked at that age too
<lar1> I think I understand transistors
<_QZ> inside?
<_QZ> mosfets?
<lar1> Mosfets yes
<lar1> That I understand
<lar1> Put power on the gate, current flows from the source to the drain
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> u wish
<lar1> What?  U mean that isn't is
<lar1> oh crap
<_QZ> for one current doesnt flow from the source
<_QZ> it flows into it
<lar1> from the drain then?
<_QZ> hole flow should only be used in digital electrons
<_QZ> electron flow should be used in all others
<_QZ> electrons flow from the lesser source to the higher source
<_QZ> ground to +5 volts, etc
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0411
IRC log ended Sun Apr 11 00:00:00 1999