IRC log started Thu Feb 25 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0225
<lar1> No ieda
<_QZ> do u have gimp?
<lar1> Ya
<_QZ> then u have gtk
<_QZ> not sure if gimp uses imlib
<_QZ> E uses imlib
<_QZ> http://www.korax.net/~mglisic
<_QZ> go there and get chameleon
<lar1> What is it?
<_QZ> its a really cool background setter 
<_QZ> u can tile or stretch any image or set colors
<_QZ> and i made the color scheme for it :)
<lar1> abi: http://www.korax.net/~mglisic is chameleon
<_QZ> well sorta
<_QZ> xwalkie and several other kewl apps are there
<_QZ> we where making a suite of apps for X
<_QZ> i made a kewl url bar that launches netscape with the url u type
<lar1> Cool, I have that in winblows
<_QZ> and we had several other programs like an email client, text editor/viewer, irc, etc, that all worked together
<lar1> You wrote them?
<_QZ> i did worte hte messaging system, irc, and url
<_QZ> ff wrote chameleon and the text 
<_QZ> and this other guy made the email
<lar1> Is it hard to code for wms?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> we did it in gtk
<lar1> What is gtk?
<abi> gtk is not upgrading easily
<_QZ> gimp toolkit
<lar1> Could it be done in C++?
<_QZ> it is hte widgets that make gimp look how it looks
<_QZ> u have to use c++
<lar1> gtk is just a lib?
12:10am
<lar1> Ok.... thanks
<_QZ> u will need to get chameleon from that page
<lar1> Ok
<_QZ> i never got around to putting it in that file
<lar1> Hehe
<_QZ> and we all got tired of doing it and it died
<_QZ> maybe u can finish it
<_QZ> :)
<lar1> Sure!  I have no clue how to do it though... I'd LOVE to have a linux app to work on!
<_QZ> well we laid out good rules for making shit
<_QZ> all the apps use the same interface 
<_QZ> there is some nice client/server code in there
<lar1> cool
<_QZ> the message passing works over a network
<_QZ> theres a parse lib to parse config files
<lar1> How many lines of code are these apps?
<_QZ> dunno
<_QZ> crap i gotta crash
<_QZ> cya
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<lar1> Later
12:20am
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<lar1> Ack... 1:02am need sleep, later all!!
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01:10am
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!ChanServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on channel #freebsd
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<lar1> HIHIHI!
<_QZ> hola
<_QZ> u get all those gtk apps working? :)
<lar1> Nah, havent had time yet
<lar1> Why is it I see the same 4 other nicks in here when ever I come?
<_QZ> eh?
<lar1> Whenever I come to #tunes I always see abi, Fare, TUNES, and _QZ... where is everyone else?
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> well abi and tunes are bots
<_QZ> fare and i just idle here
<lar1> Yah
<_QZ> the others stopped coming cuz the channel is dead
<lar1> Howd it die?  It was fine a month ago
<_QZ> tunes is dead
<_QZ> the purpose of the channel is to discuss tunes
<_QZ> but there is nothing to discuss cuz tunes sucks
<_QZ> there will never be any code for it
<lar1> Because of adminstravia?
05:10pm
<lar1> err adminstrivia
<Fare> you can /ignore _QZ
<Fare> tunes is idle, not dead
<_QZ> tunes has been idle for what, 10 years?
<lar1> Tunes has been around for 10 years?!?!?
<Fare> only 4
<Fare> that is, officially
<lar1> 4?  And there is no code?
<_QZ> brix has officially been around for 3 years
<_QZ> and its got tones of code
<Fare> tones?
<lar1> raven has been officaly around for about a year.... and there is very little code... but I learned HUGE amounts because of it
<_QZ> s/tones/tons/
<_QZ> raven?
<abi> raven is lar1's OS
<lar1> Thank you abi, well put
<lar1> How do I clean my LCD?
<Fare> with a slightly wet piece of tissue
<lar1> Ok, thanks
05:20pm
<_QZ> i find clorox and a towel works best
<lar1> clorox??
<lar1> that must be a dirty LCD
<_QZ> Joshua Matthew Mayo <jmayo@om.com.au>
<_QZ> any1 know him?
<Fare> nope
<lar1> Nope
<_QZ> he and his friends want to help with brix
<_QZ> I'd really like to be able to start writing utilities/software
<_QZ> for this. it's a very exciting new platform.
<lar1> I need more people for raven
<lar1> There is only 2.5 of us
<_QZ> damn, somehow my brix email address disappeared
<Fare> what does the tons of brix code do?
<_QZ> almost complete kernel, floppy driver, keyboard driver, ofs driver, vga driver, vesa framebuffer, a few gfx funcs, and console driver
05:30pm
<_QZ> all the driver shit will need to be converted to the new kernel when its done but that will be cake
<lar1> I need a ___SIMPLE___ file system that doesn't fragment...
<_QZ> ofs kinda doesnt fragment
<lar1> Is there any file system that doesn't fragment?  Or do they just keep it down and the kernel cleans up after it?
<_QZ> and ofs is very simple
<_QZ> when u write an object to ofs it will store it in a new location (not fragmented if possible) then delete the old copy
<Fare> lar1: the vstafs?
<Fare> lar1: why use a file system at all?
<Fare> files are EVIL
<_QZ> and the ofs driver automatically defrags the drive when idle
<lar1> Fare:  How else do I store data/programs?
<Fare> in a persistent store
<_QZ> Fare: same thing
<lar1> A what?
<abi> i heard A was a the of B iff A and B are both models of the same system C, and the abstraction level of A is higher than the abstraction level of B.
<_QZ> lar1: /ignore fare :)
<Fare> lar1: a persistent store.
<Fare> See the Tunes Glossary
<Fare> See Eumel, PLOB, PJama, STAPLE, etc
<_QZ> ofs is a persistent store
<Fare> QZ: is it? Does it do GC?
<_QZ> ya
<lar1> Hmmm, how long will it take me to write ofs drivers?
<Fare> is it a precise GC?
<_QZ> lar1: five minutes if yer good
<lar1> _QZ:  How do you define 'good'
05:40pm
<lar1> I stil havent decided to go multiuser or not...
<lar1> Ummm, _QZ... can I ask you some (possibly stupid) questions about ofs?
>>> lar1 [larman@153.37.7.59] requested PING 919993585 from #tunes
<Fare> if your design is sound, multiuser or not is irrelevant to the kernel
<Fare> instead, it comes as a gift from a high-level system. See the W7 article ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/1500-1999/AIM-1564.ps.Z
<lar1> But the fs cares... and that is what I am doing fires
<lar1> s/fires/first
<Fare> nope, the fs doesn't
<Fare> and certainly not if organized as a persistent store instead of a classical fs
<_QZ> ofs is multiuser but u can remove that easily
<_QZ> Fare: precise?
<lar1> _QZ: What if there is more free space then what will fit in the free space block?? (OFS)
<_QZ> there wont be
<lar1> Why not?
<_QZ> the driver takes care of it
<Fare> lar1: ever heard about decompacting GCs?
<lar1> QZ:  How does the driver accomplish that?
05:50pm
<lar1> Fare:  No
<_QZ> defrag
<Fare> the first I saw was the stop-n-copy from the HP28. Then I was enlightened
<lar1> defrag??  How does that help lower the number of freespace pointers needed?
<Fare> what do you call a freespace pointer?
<Fare> about memory management, you should read Henry Baker's page
<Fare> see Review/Languages.html#GC
<lar1> Fare:  I am talking about OFS
<Fare> lar1: I am talking about (persistent) memory management in general
<Fare> see also the Grasshopper system -- enlightening, too
<_QZ> lar1: if all the objects are filled in consecutive sectors then there will only be a single freespace pointer
<lar1> _QZ: OOOOOHHHH I get it... hehe
<_QZ> To: webmaster@qzx.com
<_QZ> Please remove linux from all of your machines. It sucks. 
<_QZ> Thank You for your cooperation.
<_QZ> Sincerely,
<_QZ> Alfred E. Newman
<_QZ> linuxsucks@hotmail.com
<Fare> QZ: but then your GC is stop and copy, and takes a loooong time
<_QZ> how does it take a long time?
<Fare> if you want only one free zone, you need a compactifying GC
<Fare> with only one pass
<_QZ> what
<Fare> thus, a stop and copy one
<Fare> for a parallel GC, you need at least two zones
<_QZ> i dont think u understand ofs
<Fare> (the realtime baker algorithm uses 4)
<Fare> or else you're not providing contiguous blocks to objects, as lar1 asked
06:00pm
<_QZ> when the kernel detects that a page has been modified it tells the ofs driver to save it. the ofs driver then writes those 8 sectors to the drive in a free space. the ofs driver then links that block into the object entry
<_QZ> when the system is idle the ofs driver will defrag the drive
<Fare> some systems are *never* idle
<_QZ> have u not read the brix page?
<Fare> (all the less if someone uses rc64 in the background, and plays music, keeps a log, etc)
<Fare> yes I have, some time ago
<_QZ> idle is when nothing much is running or at predefined intervals if never idle
<Fare> so that at predefined intervals, "oops, the system is stopped"
<Fare> great, for a 24/24 7/7 265/265 web server!
<lar1> _QZ:  Can you explain your UTB?
<lar1> fare:  265.25!
<Fare> ok
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<_QZ> utb?
<lar1> User Table Block
<lar1> Hold... BRB 5mins
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06:10pm
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<_QZ> E0.15 is fucking kewl
06:30pm
<_QZ> i wont be going back to afterstep now
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06:40pm
<Fare> Never tried E. Ate too much power for my lowly 486dx50
<_QZ> haha
<Fare> I now use SCWM anyway
<_QZ> well this box is a p266mmx and as soon as i get off my lazy ass and go buy an atx full tower case then it will be a 463mhz celeron
<Fare> did you see that publications.ai.mit.edu had a classics section?
<_QZ> calssics?
<Fare> And when I get my 1GHz AXP 21264, I'll laugh at you!
<_QZ> well i have a dual 463mhz celeron box
<_QZ> well sorta
<_QZ> i have the board and i have the celerons, i just need to drill em :)
<Fare> I'll get a quad 1GHz AXP 21364, then
<Fare> or 213128?
<_QZ> hahah
<Fare> when we get 1024-bit computers, we can do RSA in a register!
<_QZ> man brix will kick ass when using distributed computing between this box (463mhz celeron) and defiant (dual 463mhz celeron) :)
<_QZ> 1389mhz of power
<Fare> and we also have address space to index every single quark in the universe, too!
<Fare> hardware power without software is ridiculous
07:00pm
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<_QZ> oops
<Fare> ps only -- OO sucks
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> my god that was trippy
<_QZ> i gotta learn howto use E
07:10pm
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<lar1> SUp?
<abi> awwwwwwwww yeahhh...
<lar1> _QZ:  You there?
<_QZ> ya
09:10pm
<_QZ> u asked what was the best WM and after firing up E 0.15 i can honestly say it is
<lar1> Really?  What makes it cool?
<_QZ> its just fucking wicked
<lar1> Hehe... sold
<lar1> Why does OFS have three levels of thingies before the actual obj?
<_QZ> u can change that to simplify it
<lar1> It seems redundant to me...
<_QZ> ofcourse u dont get as many objects on the drive if u do
<_QZ> redundant
<_QZ> do u even understand what those are for?
<lar1> No
<_QZ> its a file tree
<_QZ> the root EB has 256 branches
<_QZ> each branch off the root has 256 branches and each branch off that has 256 branches
<_QZ> and each of those last branches has 256 leafs (objects)
<lar1> But if the only branch off the REB are PEBs how does that allow more files?
<_QZ> eh?
<_QZ> the fs can hold 4billion files
<lar1> I don't understand this....
<_QZ> there is only 1 REB
<lar1> What is wrong with REB -> Object?
<lar1> RIght
<_QZ> ther can be upto 256 PEB's
<_QZ> ther can be upto 65536 SEB's
<lar1> Can objs be in a PEB?
<_QZ> and 16.8million OEB's
<_QZ> and im going to add a flag to the ofs that lets u get rid of the the REB, PEB or SEB on a new drive
<lar1> But... so is the REB like / and the PEB /home and the SEB /<username>?
<_QZ> ofcourse that only saves a few k so i dont know
<lar1> err /home/<username>
<_QZ> yes
<_QZ> REB/PEB/SEB/OEB/yerfiles
<lar1> Can other objects then SEBs be put in a PEB?
<_QZ> no
<lar1> Wait... isnt that innefficent?  That is a lot of pointers...
<_QZ> REB=PEB=SEB
<_QZ> they are all 1k in size and hold a 32bit pointer to each of the 256 entries
09:20pm
<lar1> Ohhhhh
<_QZ> its 7k
π lar1/#tunes mind sinks in to a clearer picture...
<_QZ> for the first 256 files
<_QZ> er, 6k
<_QZ> 9k for 512 files, 12k for 768, ...
<lar1> So if I want file FooBar... and it is in REB->PEB(5)->SEB(20)->OEB(100) but the os doesn't know that...
<_QZ> REB(1)->PEB(5)->SEB(20)->OEB(100)
<_QZ> 1.5.20.100
<_QZ> its a 32bit number
<_QZ> just like an ip address
<lar1> So 1.5.20.100 would point to the CHS to begin reading FooBar?
<lar1> Hey it is!!
<_QZ> no
<lar1> Where is the CHS to begin reading FooBar, then?
<_QZ> the 100th entry in the 20th OEB in the 5th SEB in the 1st PEB holds the CHS
<_QZ> the OEB is a 3k block holding 256 12byte entries
<lar1> And each 12b entry is a CHS pointer to a file?
<_QZ> 32bit CHS; 24bit sector_size; 8bit flags; 24bit run_length; 8bit reserved
<lar1> Okay... that makes sense now
<_QZ> if the SLT flag is set then the CHS points to an SLT table
<_QZ> SLT means the file is fragmented
<_QZ> the SLT table has pointers to each fragment
<lar1> Objs or just CHS?
<_QZ> if the SLT flag is clear then the file is unfragmented
<_QZ> eh?
<lar1> The SLT, does it contain entires in OBJ format or just CHS pointers?
<_QZ> have u read the page?
<_QZ> it describes all this
<_QZ> and has nice tables and shit :)
<lar1> yes, I am looking at it now
<lar1> This is just all my left over ?s
<lar1> I have a really weird learning style...
09:30pm
<_QZ> each SLT contains 64 entries CHS/size
<lar1> Ok, got it
<_QZ> if there are more than 63 fragments then the 64th entry points to another SLT
<_QZ> and if u dont want multiuser than get rid of the user table block
<lar1> So this FS is toaly easy!
<_QZ> and just store the REB in sector 7
<lar1> What does your BPB look like?
<_QZ> ya ofs is cake
<_QZ> BPB?
<lar1> Bios prameter block
<_QZ> eh?
<lar1> You've never worked with FAT?  It is a block with the disk label, size of root, etc in begenning or BS
<_QZ> brix doesnt use the bios
<_QZ> oh
<_QZ>         jmp start
<_QZ>                 db      'BRiX 010'      ; fs version
<_QZ> boot_SECTORS    db      SECTORS         ; sectors per track
<_QZ>                 times 16 db 0           ; volume ID
<_QZ> boot_USER_size  db      1               ; user table size in sectors
<_QZ> boot_K_chs      dw      0               ; kernel CHS pointer
<_QZ>                 db      0
<_QZ>                 db      0
<_QZ> boot_K_size     db      0               ; kernel size in sectors
<lar1> Crap!  That is SMALL!!!!
<_QZ> my ofs format program adds the boot_K_chs _size values and 
<lar1> When will BRiX be relesed?
<_QZ> tomorrow
<lar1> You are serious?
<_QZ> no
<lar1> I thought so... ;)
<_QZ> damnit my car had better be here tomorrow
<_QZ> or i'll be pissed
<lar1> Where is your car?
<_QZ> it was in new mexico last week
<_QZ> they were gonna fly a guy down and have him drive it back
<lar1> Did you just move or something?
<_QZ> but then they decided to ship it on a truck
<_QZ> no, im buying it
<lar1> oh
<_QZ> i dont take shit off the lot :)
09:40pm
<_QZ> i gotta have it my way
<_QZ> not what they think ppl want
<lar1> hehe
<_QZ> pontiac sunfire, bright red, all the options
π lar1/#tunes has not a clue what that car is...
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<lar1> Hi oilphaunt
<oliphaunt> hello there
<_QZ> bright red, not black
<lar1> Nice!
<lar1> What is with thoes 2 db 0s in your pram block?
<_QZ> head and sector
<_QZ> CHS
<_QZ> the dw is cylinder
<lar1> Ohhh.. hehe a cyl is 16 bit?
<_QZ> 10bit
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> Ok, do I have your premission to implement OFS in raven?
<_QZ> supports 8gig
<_QZ> sure
<_QZ> just give credit
<lar1> Just to _QZ?
<_QZ> u do realize ofs doesnt provide naming or directories right?
<_QZ> no credit to brix
<_QZ> just say u stole ofs from brix :)
<lar1> Ok
<lar1> No... I overlooked that...
<lar1> What in BRiX handles that?
<_QZ> ofs just stores objects
<lar1> shit
<_QZ> its upto something else to organize them
<lar1> just when I thought I had it!!!! ACK!!!
<_QZ> brix uses a shitload of more complicated stuff to handle that
π lar1/#tunes hasy cloud creeps up
09:50pm
<lar1> How does that work (dare I ask)?
<_QZ> haha
<lar1> Thought so
<_QZ> the first object in ofs holds most of it
<_QZ> i guess for what u need it would hold everything
<_QZ> let me send it to u
<_QZ> hold on
<lar1> Ok
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<_QZ> oh jeez
<lar1> huh?
<_QZ> brix will not let shit get lost like linux does :)
<_QZ> i have to search thru all these stinkin directories to find this file
<lar1> linux gets stuff lost?
<lar1> do a find?
<_QZ> find would probably work if i new the filename
<lar1> hehe
<_QZ> i know tril has it
<_QZ> or maybe that was tcn
<_QZ> someone here has it 
<lar1> :)
<lar1> I thought you said this chan was dead...
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<lar1> Hey kpeters!
10:00pm
<lar1> Linux Support line... how much does it cost?
<_QZ> :)
<lar1> I can't find it on the page
<_QZ> oh crap
<lar1> Cant find it?
<_QZ> no its pissing me off
<_QZ> i NEED this file
<_QZ> can u tell find to exclude a directory?
<lar1> I dont know...
<lar1> Are you pro or con PIII?
<_QZ> con
<lar1> Me too
<lar1> I refuse to put that thing in any of my boards
10:10pm
<lar1> What do you think about dual OCed celerys?
<_QZ> shit there it is
<lar1> :)
<_QZ> no wonder i couldnt find it
<_QZ> its not even on this box :)
<_QZ> http://borg.qzx.com/bi
<lar1> k
<_QZ> goto the persistent link
<lar1> Uhhhh, I'll write/figure out my own handlers... I'm lost...
<_QZ> haha
<_QZ> ok ill sum it up
<lar1> Tnx
<_QZ> that page talks about associating keywords to objects
<_QZ> it has a 2 way thing: key->objects and object->keys
<_QZ> so u can search either way and it will be fast
<_QZ> a keyword is a 64bit compressed 12 char string
<lar1> Couldn't you just have a file with a table in it? Or is that was it is?
<lar1> Compressed?  How?
<_QZ> english
<_QZ> 26 letters
<_QZ> only needs 5bits
<_QZ> so u can fit 12 5bit chars in 60bits
<_QZ> 4bits left over
<lar1> 5 bit char?  ASCII is 8 bit, right?
<_QZ> english uses 26 letters
<_QZ> that fits in 5bits
<_QZ> 8bits holds 256 characters
<lar1> Ooooooo, this doesn't use ASCII!
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> zero is 'a', 1 is 'b'
<lar1> what are oids?
<_QZ> for the key->objects section u have a 64bit key, the number of objects associated with that key (32bit), and an ofs pointer to each object
<_QZ> object id
<_QZ> oid is the REB.PEB.SEB.OEB
<lar1> What does  # = 32bit number of oids mean?
10:20pm
<_QZ> for hte object->keys section u have a 32bit oid, the number of keys associated with the object and the 64bit keys
<_QZ> ignore that
<lar1> ok
<_QZ> if u want to use unicode keys for foreign language then u need the filter section
<_QZ> it associates unicode strings to the 12 char keywords
<lar1> Ugh... thats a v1.0 thing...
<_QZ> then at the bottom u have the info section
<_QZ> thats where the important shit about each object is stored
<_QZ> title,author,dates,times,type,etc
<_QZ> this section can be modified
<lar1> Ahhhhh
<_QZ> there is a template so the system knows how u have modified it
<lar1> Thats always helpful ;)
<_QZ> so if u create a new version of the ofs dbase file then my version can read yer version
<_QZ> as long as u dont redefine the template symbols
<_QZ> the code that reads the info section should ignore symbols it dont understand just like html browsers do
<lar1> You designd BRiX by yourself?
<_QZ> yup
<lar1> Pretty damn ingenious
<_QZ> thanks :)
<lar1> What the heck is your camra pointed at??
<_QZ> the wall
<_QZ> oh btw those symbols are numbers
<lar1> ok
<_QZ> not chars '\T'
<_QZ> its kinda like C "\n" is newline
<_QZ> so \T is 0, \A is 1, etc
10:30pm
<_QZ> oh btw brix has one serious bug
<lar1> Wha?
<_QZ> the year 11,759,230 bug :)
<lar1> ahem.... cough....
<lar1> Why do I feel you wont be using BRiX in 11,759,320?
<_QZ> oh trust me
<_QZ> brix will be the ONLY OS used in 11,759,230
<lar1> Anyway, no matter what you do, you can't avoid a but like that
<lar1> Thats what you want me to belive...
<_QZ> and the 11,757,230 years before that
<lar1> Why am I not using it now then??
<_QZ> its not the year 2000 yet :)
<_QZ> anyway, i must be up in 6 hours so...
<lar1> Will BRiX be relesed on Jan 1. 2000 12:00?
<_QZ> no
<lar1> before then?
<_QZ> it will be released december 1st 1999
<lar1> Cool
<_QZ> it will be on every store shelf in the country
<_QZ> $19.99
<lar1> Uh huh...
<_QZ> i will sell 100,000,000 copies before xmas
<lar1> raven will be $0.00 (well fine $2.00 for cd cost)
<lar1> mabye $3.00 if you want the printed manual
<_QZ> well u can download brix for free
<lar1> Same here
<_QZ> but no one gives away cd's
<lar1> thats why I said mabye $2.00 for the cd cost
<_QZ> u gotta cover the cost of the cd, the kickass box it will come in and advertising costs to sell 100 million copies in 1 months
<lar1> 1 months?
<_QZ> 1 month
<lar1> :)
<lar1> 1 month(s)
<_QZ> and it will have games
<_QZ> it will have all the games u play now
<_QZ> cuz it will have a PC emulator, like bochs cept it doesnt emulate normal user-level instructions
<_QZ> so it will be fast
10:40pm
<lar1> I don't want to be playing StarCraft in December...
<_QZ> it will run windows98 inside brix
<lar1> I don't want to play Quake II in december...
<_QZ> the emulator will let u play yer games and use yer current apps that brix doesnt handle yet
<_QZ> but u wont be forced to use the shit interface of windows and most of its crap apps
<lar1> Ohhhh, ok
<_QZ> u will be using the superior document centric UI of brix
<_QZ> :)
<lar1> Thanks for all your help
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> night
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
<lar1> night
ωνω SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0226
IRC log ended Fri Feb 26 00:00:00 1999